It seems like lots of people have lots of bones to pick with Mark McAfee, owner of Organic Pastures Dairy Co.
He’s accused in the discussion following my Sunday posting of changing his story about whether he tests for pathogens, of letting his dairy get too big for safety’s sake, of having a big ego, and even of posting responses on this blog using pseudonyms. Another blog, The Ethicurean, which I respect a great deal, has come up with something else: it questions Organic Pastures’ failure to inform its customers that it was acquiring raw cream from another dairy. “A lack of transparency will erode trust,” it concludes.
I have both criticized and defended Mark previously about his approach to the illnesses that were potentially linked to his milk. I concluded finally that he had essentially had his trial via an intensive investigation that failed to confirm any links.
This latest round of discussion is a little different, though. It’s really addressing Mark’s business and personal ethics.
I think it’s a great discussion to have, since it is a direct outgrowth of the desire by growing numbers of consumers to know their food producers. One of the main reasons to know your producer is to be able to ask questions and make suggestions about his or her farming and business practices. The producer can then decide which suggestions to take seriously and which to discard. The customer can similarly decide whether to continue doing business with the farmer.
Mark has provided his explanation of what happened in this latest complaint by the California agriculture authorities (and maybe even taken on a pseudonym to express some frustration, though I have no way of knowing whether he did, and hope that wasn’t the case). He’s admitted that he erred by not having full pathogen-testing capabilities.
Melissa and Mary McGonigle-Martin have clearly made their decisions not to purchase any more Organic Pastures products, which, as several readers point out, is their right. It is the essence of the American capitalist system. It is also an outgrowth of an impressive amount of transparency on Mark’s part.
Melissa can argue that Mark has changed his story in certain ways or that he looked agitated when he appeared on television, but the important point is that he’s been available to provide his explanation of events. And obviously enough customers have decided to accept his explanations to enable him to continue growing his dairy.
The place where transparency is non-existent is with the taxpayer-supported California Department of Food and Agriculture. We don’t really have a way of knowing whether its test for listeria monocytogenes in Organic Pastures cream was reasonable or, as Steve Bemis suggests, part of a coordinated Food and Drug Administration campaign to sow fear. Farmer and producer alike are just supposed to take the agency’s word, in the form of a brief press release, that it found dangerous pathogens. Period. End of discussion.
So as much as you may not care for Mark’s style or way of saying things, he is upholding his end of the information-communication bargain. It’s the state that isn’t doing its part or, more troubling, deliberately misleading the public.
***
As a followup to the recent discussion about the centrality of soil conditions in animal and human health, there is a new report from the Organic Center suggesting strongly that today’s veggies and grains are lacking in nutrients when compared with old-time veggies. “For instance, looking at 63 spring wheat cultivars grown between 1842 and 2003, researchers at Washington State University found declines in the concentrations for all eight minerals studied, with an 11 percent decline for iron, 16 percent decline for copper, 25 percent decline for zinc, and 50 percent decline for selenium,” the Organic Center stated in a release describing the report. It blames crops designed to maximize quantity over quality.
Our children and families were victims. Talk to me when your child almost dies of E-Coli.
Im starting to wonder if you work for Organic Pastures Dairy !!
So, now are you saying that you are (moonshine) and then Mark makes a statement afterwards? Just like on this blog. Was that you making an offensive statement about counseling and then Mark makes a statement afterwards? If so, youre a creative and calculating team. You make insulting statements (hit and run) and then Mark comes on with his mantra about raw milk. Wow. Ruth you will be happy, Im speechless.
Ruth, if this is who you would like to defend, be my guest, but I think you would be upset if your child was ill, actually near death, and someone told flat out lies about the situation to make himself look better. When we were in the hospital, I didnt call the CDC or make claims that Marks milk made Chris ill. The doctors asked questions and then the CDC showed up and asked questions. Actually, I was defending Mark and his milk. I dont come to a conclusion until I have all the facts. I didnt have all the facts at that time, so I had an open mind as to what made him ill. Believe me, I was the only idiot defending his position. Melissa can validate this. She was very patient with my point of view.
In January of 2007, he did an interview for Acres U.S.A. These are Marks actual words. The more he speaks, the angrier I become. His false statements are insulting to our children and families. He didnt come to the hospital out of concern for our children.
ACRES U.S.A. All these things stated you have an absolutely impeccable record and reputation. Why would the authorities pick on you?
McAFEE. We are the poster child for how to do raw milk in the United States. If they can destroy the poster child, theyll destroy the entire paradigm. Theyll destroy the entire movement and destroy the source of raw milk because its our integrity thats under attack. I believe they think if they can get rid of Mark McAfee and Organic Pastures Dairy, theyll have no leadership in the industry so why not go after us? The problem they had was that they shot first and asked questions later and they forgot something. They forgot who Mark McAfee was. I was a paramedic for 16 years, and I am very, very familiar with taking medical histories. Im also very, very familiar with going into hospitals and becoming friends with nurses. So I went in and basically cozied up to all these ICU nurses and doctors and talked to the patients themselves, talked to the parents of the children that they said were sickened by our milk, and I found out that the truth was completely different from the claims of the authorities. In fact, there werent four children, there were only two children who were sick, and of those two children, one was officially on the spinach list and admitted to having spinach from Watsonville; the other came out on national TV and said it had nothing to do with the milk.
(Mary) Does this at all sound a bit egocentric? Poster Child? And as for him cozying up to the nurses and doctors, this is laughable. First of all the PICU is a locked facility. They only let family and friends of family in (with a family member). HIPPA laws dont allow any doctor or nurse to share any confidential information. I couldnt even get information about Lauren Herzog. As for talking to the children, Chris was on a ventilator. Neither Lauren (who didnt eat spinach) nor Chris (who did eat spinach, but not the packaged Dole spinach that was implicated in the outbreak) were on the official spinach list from Watsonville spinach. There were only two sick children at Loma Linda Childrens Hospital. The other two children were in San Diego County and another child in Northern California. Marks versions of the story are all fabrications. Hes impulsive when he speaks and makes up the story as he goes along. Only people who have something to hide make up lies.
ACRES U.S.A. What were you able to find out?
McAFEE. I went down and visited the families two days later I actually had a physical visit at Loma Linda Hospital, and the story quickly unfolded. In fact the illnesses had nothing to do with our milk we were just easy opportunity targets because we were raw milk, but when youve got 50,000 people a week drinking your milk in Southern California, youre going to have overlap. And you know they didnt even find the same strains in all the fecal exams they werent the same, there were two different strains! Ive learned that researchers are finding theres a second strain of pathogen in the contaminated spinach, even though the CDC says theres only one strain. There are a bunch of families out there right now that are bewildered because they had spinach and got sick and have E. coli, but have a different strain. Theres kind of official denial of that. In any case, within a week of this whole quarantine happening, I threatened to hold a press conference to tell all about what I had discovered. The state was begging me not to do so because they wanted more time to get their tests completed. I basically had them over the barrel because Id caught them in a lie and consumers were irate, they were writing letters and calling their congressmen and everything we had 8,000 e-mails come in. We had people ready to march on to Sacramento because they wanted raw milk. So the state capitulated within seven days.
(Mary)Once again, a tad bit egocentric. So now there are two different strains; meaning different e-coli blueprints. Mark has so much power that the state backed down???? If this was true (different blueprints of e-coli) Mark would have publicized this everywhere. It would have been to his benefit to make this information known. I think the true version of this story is his dairy was reopened because they didnt find any e-coli 0157:H7 in the milk or around his dairy. In late October, when they searched hundreds of his cows, they did find e-coli 0157:H7 in one of the milking cows and two dry heard cows, but not the same blueprint as the sick children.
His final statement says it all.
ACRES U.S.A. So, where do you go from here? Does this in the long run hurt your business, or are you going to pick up customers?
McAFEE. Our sales are 30 percent higher now that were back in production. We cannot keep product on the shelf. It has been the greatest thing thats ever happened to our market.
(Mary)Marks business is booming and hes worried about what I say about his milk. Why? Am I hitting to close to the truth?
Now I hand milk a family cow, and am very satisfied with the safety of our milk. But Id bet that Marks dairy is cleaner than minehis certainly receives more objective testing than mine. My cow tromps through muck and mire in a small pasture shared with deer and turkey and God only knows what else. I milk on a dirt floor. Milk goes from the udder into an open bucket. Dust and dirt and flecks of this and that inevitably drop in. I myself lean over that bucket every day. These are, in short, conditions that would make any dairy inspector cringe. But they are also, as Mary McGonigle Martin has pointed out, the right and natural way to get milk, and likely mimic the way the elderly raw milk drinker described in a previous post, got her milk. In all that mess, there is great health, and very adequate safety. How can that be?
We MUST come to grips with the fact there is inherent risk in, well, just about everything, and that our natural world affords us both dangers and protections. The raw milk movement is sometimes portrayed as a crazy killer, completely on the danger side of that equation. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is really about making the best use of the best protections we know of, by encouraging finely-tuned, vigorous, adaptable, and healthy bodies thorugh natural means.
I never use a stage name when I post comments on public blogs never. If I did not use my name, it was not me!!
I need to explain a little about raw cream. It takes 100 pounds of raw milk to make just 6 pints ( six pounds ) of raw cream. The rest of the precious (94 pounds ) is thrown away. In the raw markets everyone wants raw butter and raw cream. The pasteurized organic markets are a low fat market and there is extra organic raw cream available.
We never outsource our raw milk…never. But when it comes to providing living high quality raw organic cream from pasture fed cows…we do buy limited amounts from outside sources. I have been very open about this. I have no secrets about this, why would I? It is organic grass fed and raw. This is 100% integrity. Straus dairy out sources most of its milk. This is common in organic dairies. Anyone I speak with I share this with.
Some additional helpful facts might also help. Did you know that CDFA does not ever test pasteurized products for pathogens? It is against their policy. This is because pasteurization does not kill all pathogens it just reduces them by a factor of five logs.
The raw cream that has made so many headlines took nine days to culture in very special listeria broth in order to get a cell to grow enough to be detected. This detect was extremely low level and sub clinical. It could never make someone sick. In fact, according to Pub Med…10% of the population has listeria in their gut already and are completely immune to it.
No one has been sickened by the recalled cream.
That’s zero people sick. Why is this news?
I think I will collect 100 samples of pasteurized milk and culture them for nine days in lab perfect conditions, conditions not found in humans or nature or stores and then report back to this blog.
All this talk about pathogens is really a symptom of how far we are disconnected with how organic systems function. Pathogens can only sicken those that are weak. Pathogens are only significant in America because of our love of sterile dead food. Sterile dead food is the source of our rampant immune depression and chronic disease patterns. Raw milk drinkers by definition have a completely different immune system and rarely get sick from pathogens or other bacteria.
That is the goal we all strive for. That is why raw milk is so critically important and so rare in our country.
This is a biological and political battle and this will not be the last or the worst attack on OPDC or other raw milk producers.
If you want raw milk….as consumers, I beg you to band together and thank god and OPDC and Claravale for raw milk in CA. We carry one hell of a cross for this public privilege.
In NC, they are now required to add black food coloring into their raw milk.
Bickering among raw milk consumers is so very sad. We should be spending our time rejoicing about the fact that our children no longer suffer from ear infections and asthma. No more lactose intolerance…no more IBS or Ulcers.
We should be spending our time building up the raw milk reputation instead of helping CDFA and FDA accomplish their objectives.
Another 270 people died today because of immune depression and MRSA and antibiotic resistant infections.
Thats the news.
Raw milk bacteria phobia is the distraction that many foolishly follow away from true discussions and issues. In order to be immune healthy…we must start a love affair with good bacteria sources or be forever doomed to illness. Thats how we function.
I always take calls from consumers. I was at the Fresno Farmers Market when I was called on a weekend. Please call 1-877 RAW MILK and I would be very happy to talk with any one. As CEO I am dedicated to each and every consumer and will always take that call. Always!!
If we expect to have whole foods available, we must fight together. Not amongst each other.
Please call me…
Mark McAfee
Founder OPDC
I don’t see the CEOs of Dean Foods, Horizon Dairy, Brown Cow, Seven Stars, Hartzler’s Dairy, etc. anywhere on this blog, and I doubt they publicize their phone numbers or email addresses.
That fact that the CDFA cultured the cream sample for nine days is ridiculous, bordering on outrageous and could only have been done with malice in mind. The FDA’s guidelines call for food samples to be cultured for two days at 86 degrees in an enrichment and selection broth before examination for pathogens. The FDA also has a zero-tolerance policy for Listeria Monocytogenes, so detection of any viable bacteria at all is grounds for a recall – no matter how ridiculous. I’d love for Mark to run the same tests on any pasteurized milk products and look for Listeria, Campylobacter, E. Coli and all the rest. Heck, I’ll write and distribute the press release for him if he does! 🙂
A couple of questions for Mary Martin.
Firstly and most importantly how is your son? I have heard that he is doing great and I am so very glad!!
#1 Did your son ever have Ecoli 0157H7 cultured from his stools?
You told me that your son never had Ecoli 0157H7 cultured in his stools and that the culture showed Shiggella not Ecoli.
#2. Did your son eat spinach prior to getting sick?
You told me that your son had eaten spinach prior to becoming ill.
I have the greatest compassion for you and your family and your pain. I nearly lost my daughter Kaleigh when she was 11 years old, nine years ago from Meningitis. I know about the pain of nearly losing a child and holding their weak precious hand in an ICU and wishing and praying to god and crying. I was a paramedic for 16 years and ran about 15000 911 EMS calls. I know about death and dying. I have stood as the only thing between precious warm vital life and the still cold soullessness of death. Many times at 0200 in the morning my skills ( by the grace of god ) made that difference. I have the family thank you cards and the memorializing hugs forever in my memory. I have held parents in my arms as I told them that their child was dead. I have cried with them…I still dream of them.
Mary it is now time to emotionally heal and go forward. No connection was found between your son and our raw dairy products. This was the official CDFA statement released and printed on the front page of the Fresno Bee in September 2006. I can email this to anyone that wants it.
I have dedicated the rest of my life to the prevention of disease through whole foods and nutritional prevention. I can not do this through dead pasteurized products. They do not heal, they irritate and inflame. Pro-biotic raw whole dairy products heal and sooth .
I am in the business of health education and good bacteria and how the immune system of the human body works. I also sell raw milk.
I would ask that those that do not understand Mark McAfee and think of me as a "pathogen pusher" to please come visit with me and read the growing three inch think book of consumer testimonials. When you stop crying then you can join me in my passion. now more than ever. This added experience is the strongest evidence ever that we have much work to do in America. America does not understand how to prevent disease. Our official bacteria paranoid policies cause disease. Change is our job and change is my job. This is literally bioterrorism of our own making.
Blessings to all the mothers that suffer when their children are sick. Blessings to all the kids that can not drink raw milk (because of ignorant parents) and be well…naturally. There is a reason why mother nature created the human breast and why this breast did not produce pasteurized milk.
Rememberanother 270 people, enough to fill a 747 Jumbo Jet, died ( were killed ) today because of immune depression and antibiotic resistant infections ( CDC data ). This is a direct result of FDA policy, drug companies greed and doctors ignorance. Strong immune systems would prevent this daily tragedy.
Healing to you all,
Mark McAfee
Founder OPDC
Fresno County Paramedic of the year 1994
Retired EMS Paramedic
Fresno County A-82155
On Mothering.com in the commune section where you post comments, there is a woman that says her and her husband drank Raw Cream from Organic Pastures and both her and her husband got sick. She was asking other bloggers what she should do about it. (I dont want to post her comments so you will have to go on there and search for it)
Mark, I wouldnt make the claim that no one got sick quite yet.
And what are you saying, its ok that you have Listeria in your product as long as NO ONE gets sick.?????
I think you are just used to being knee deep in cow manure that you think that everyone else should be too.
MAYBE WE SHOULD ALL PUT ON OUR BOOTS. 🙂
About two years ago I bought raw milk for the first time and I cultured it. After my first glass of homemade raw milk kefir (from Organic Pastures), I could feel the difference in my gut. I thought "there is something special about this milk."
The other kefir I had been drinking had vitamins, beneficial bacteria, and enzymes, but this particular kefir had more of something. I don’t know entirely what the difference is. I expect it’s some combination of the bacteria, enzymes, and nutrients. Food science literature would be at a loss to account for my particular experience.
I kept drinking the milk but I continued to be skeptical of the Organic Pastures business because, as I said, that’s how I am.
I met Mark for the first time at the press conference after the recall. From some of his actions I decided that he was the real deal and it was not about the money. I have since had a number of interactions with him that have only reinforced my belief.
Mark is a little wild and crazy (which you really have to be in this business) and I can see how that zeal would rub some people the wrong way. But I would not mistake that zeal for a zeal for money. There are easier ways to earn money than by owning a raw milk dairy, to be sure.
The cream issue and the growing market for raw milk does bring up the question of how dairies will meet the growing demand. As a resident of the largest dairy-producing county in the country, it’s pretty clear to me that Organic Pastures isn’t just like any old dairy. In fact, watch my video eulogy of the Vander Eyk Organic Dairy as an example:
While it would be ideal for all of us to have our own cows, it’s also a good idea to discuss how Mark’s methods can be used by other dairies to improve dairy products in general and to reduce the environmental impact of dairies. If other dairies were using the methods of the Organic Pastures Dairy, the outsourcing of the cream would not be an issue at all.
Amanda
It’s not a conspiracy; but it is a fraternity of thought that does not recognize simple, humble, natural. It’s a fraternity that worships technology, power, and domination. In the process, the systems are inherently energy-intensive, high maintenance, and non-adaptable. The research never considered better options.
I’m really enjoying the book and the view from Joel’s eyes.
When presented with alternative explanations for common "truths", people ask all the time how the "experts" could possibly be wrong (about cholesterol, saturated fat, raw milk, grass fed beef and pastured animals, and so many more things), since they are experts and mistakes would be detected and corrected. I think the statement above sums it up nicely why "they" miss things from looking at issues in such a one-dimensional way.
Another note: We’re switching milks again. Since last spring and all summer I’ve been buying what I guess is essentially probably illegal (no official oversight at all) raw goat milk the past few months for a couple of reasons: it is delivered to me (how cool is that?!); at $7/gallon is half the price of OPDC milk; it is more local (same county) rather than half a large state away; and I like making cheese with it.
But I’ve just dropped our order down to one gallon a week, just for making cheese.
My son missed the taste of OPDC cow milk for drinking and is a bit tired of drinking the "goaty" milk. It just doesn’t taste right in some things, like coffee, hot chocolate, etc. I had the permission of some friends’ moms to serve it to their kids, but they also didn’t like the flavor (they like OPDC and I also have permission to serve that – I don’t serve raw milk to kids if I don’t have parental permission). Gabriel had practically stopped drinking milk the second half of this summer while I was buying goat milk it was piling up faster than I could make it into cheese.
I didn’t hesitate for a second about buying OPDC milk the way I hesitated picking up a package of bagged baby spinach one day not long ago when I was out of CSA farm share veggies and company was coming to dinner. I put the prewashed spinach bag back and bought a fresh bunch and washed it myself, even though I was short on time.
I’ve been to Mark McAfee’s lectures, read his interviews, received email answers to my emailed questions when we were new to raw dairy products, and he gave us a personal tour of his farm & dairy when we showed up one afternoon (I can’t even get Trder Joe’s to tell me which dairy suppied their private label organic milk, let alone visit and meet the perosn in charge). Yes, McAfee’s passionate and evangelical (perhaps a bit too much in manner like a revivalist) and often speaks extemporaneously so some of his words could be better chosen. So I guess I make allowances for some of the more over-the-top things he says (for instance I object to the "cure" claims). He’s a believer, and as such, is into it 100%. Probably everything he has is sunk into raw milk. But he doesn’t strike me as a false man, one only out for money, or one who would wish harm on others.
Mary makes a powerful case that the milk was the link. I’m open to that possibility, though I think it is far from proven and I doubt we will ever know for sure. But even so, I still choose raw milk. And stay away from prewashed, bagged, convenience produce (actually I had stopped buying prewashed ready-to-eat produce about a year before the spinach recall, partially because I knew it was a contamination risk tradeoff for convenience).
You and I both know the answers to your questions. We already had this discussion on the phone in April of 2007 and on the blog after Suzanne Nelson ran her story about raw milk in June of 2007. Why do you ask them again? Is this to take the focus off the fact that 3 of the 4 children who became ill after drinking OP milk all had the same blueprint of e-coli 0157:H7? It doesnt really matter that the bacteria was never isolated in Chris, it was isolated in the three other children. An outbreak is defined as 2 or more people becoming ill after consuming the same food.
An 8 year old girl in San Diego County (S.California) consumed raw milk on 9/2 and 9/3 and became ill on 9/6. The e-coli bacteria were isolated.
Lauren Herzog, San Bernardino County (S.California), consumed raw milk on 9/2 and/or 9/3 and became ill on 9/6. The e-coli bacteria were isolated.
Chris Martin, Riverside County, (S.California) consumed raw milk on 9/2, 9/3, and 9/4 and became ill on 9/7. The e-coli bacteria were not isolated.
Adam Chaffee, Nevada City, (N. California) consumed raw milk on Labor Day weekend (I dont have the dates). The e-coli bacteria were isolated.
The E-coli bacteria that were isolated in the children was a different blueprint than the E-coli bacteria that were isolated in the people who became ill after eating spinach.
Here are the answers to your questions again:
#1. No, the e-coli bacteria was never isolated in Chris. NO bacteria was ever isolated in Chrisnot Shigella, not e-coli. The Shiga toxin was found in Chris. Both e-coli and Shigella emit the Shiga toxin. The Shiga toxin attacks the cells in the kidneys, pancreas and brain. Severe cases of e-coli 0157:H7 (and other strains of e-coli) and Shigella can develop into HUS. Shigella that develops into HUS is almost unheard of in the U.S. This is seen in third world countries.
For whatever reason, Chris was initially diagnosed with Shigella. The diagnosis took place at Kaiser Sunset in Los Angeles California. The nephrologist who diagnosed him had never treated a case of Shigella that developed into HUS, but she chose Shigella as a diagnosis instead of E-coli. Why.probably as a CYA. They screwed up and gave Chris an antibiotic. This is the correct treatment protocol for treating Shigella, not E-coli 0157:H7. Giving an antibiotic to someone who has e-coli contamination increases the chances of developing HUS.
After Kaiser almost killed Chris because they filled him up with fluids without having the capacity to do kidney dialysis, he was airlifted to Loma Linda Childrens Hospital. Unbeknownst to us, Lauren Herzog had already been there for 2 days. Once Chris arrived and they discovered he had also consumed OP raw milk in the same timeframe as Lauren, Chris diagnosis was officially changed to E-coli 0157:H7. Two of the three nephrologists who treated Chris have been in practice at LLUCH for over 20 years. Neither of them had ever seen a case of Shigella that had turned into HUS. But you already know all of this information because Ive explained it in great detail to you before.
#2 Yes Chris ate spinach. He ate spinach that was purchased from an open bin at our local health food store. He did not eat Dole packaged spinach that was implicated in the spinach outbreak. For this reason, spinach was ruled out as the food source that caused him to become ill. All the people that became ill in the outbreak ate Dole packaged spinach. When I told you this in the hospital (that he ate spinach) it was the beginning of the outbreak. All the facts werent in yet. I explained all of this to you on the phone when we spoke in April
Mark, I was completely honest with you in the hospital. I shared all to the facts regarding Chris and his illness because there was no reason to keep anything a secret. My son was on a ventilator with his arms tied to the bed, had drainage tubes coming out of both sides of his chest and was receiving kidney dialysis. My focus was on Chris, not on what he ate that caused him to become ill.
At this time, I knew was that there was a raw milk and spinach e-coli outbreak and that my son consumed both products on Labor Day Weekend. I also knew that all the children who drank OP milk tested positive for the same e-coli blueprint.
When I spoke to you, I thought we were in the process of having the spinach and milk tested. The public health nurse had picked up both products, but then later I discovered that they wouldnt test them because the e-coli bacteria were never isolated in Chris. They were too overloaded from the spinach outbreak. At this time, I didnt come to any conclusions about what made Chris ill because I was waiting for all the facts. I told you to your face that I hope it wasnt your milk that caused Chris to become ill. I didnt make any accusations. I was very kind, calm and tried to treat you with the utmost respect.
I do owe you an apology for one thing; I accused you of making derogatory comments about me needing counseling. Ruth made these comments. So I apologize for accusing you of saying something you didnt say. In my defense, if you go back and read the comments, you will see why I came to the false conclusion it was you.
The next time you speak about my child in any of your interviews, please get the facts straight and do not embellish the story. It very disrespectful to hear the way you speak about our tragedy. You were not blindsided by the recall. Both my husband and Melissas x-husband called you a day or two after the kids became ill. Dont make it sound like you didnt know the identities of our children or which hospital we were at. Melissas x-husband and girlfriend were in very close contact with you. The girlfriend even attended your rally.
These are the facts I want you using about Chris:
1. He drank raw milk for only three weeks before becoming ill
2. The weekend he drank the milk that was implicated in the recall, he also ate spinach. But it was not packaged Dole spinach, so spinach was ruled out as the source that caused Chris to become ill
3. The bacteria that caused Chris to become ill were never isolated in his stool, however, because he developed HUS, E-coli 0157:H7 is the bacteria he was suspected of having. All the medical experts at Loma Lindas Childrens Hospital concurred with this diagnosis.
Here are the facts I have used about the milk and the recall:
1. Four kids became ill after drinking OP milk. Three of the four kids all had the same blueprint of E-coli 0157:H7.
2. E-coli 0157:H7 was never found in the milk or on the farm
3. In late October of 2006, 200 + cows were checked for the matching blueprint of E-coli 0157:H7. It was not found. However, all of your cows were not checked.
4. They didnt find the matching blueprint of 0157:H7, but they did find 1 milking cow and two dry herd cows with 0157:H7. I spoke to Patrick who was in charge of investigating your farm, and he told me this information.
Based on the above facts, I have a right to my opinion and I believe your milk was contaminated with E-coli 0157:H7. I believe your milk caused our children to become ill. 4 children drank OP milk on the same weekend, they all become ill in the same timeframe, they all live in different counties within California, & 3 or the 4 had the same blueprint of E-coli 0157:H7 (which means it comes from the same food source). This is proof enough that your milk was contaminated.
Mary
If you would have read my post more clearly, you would have noticed that I didnt say you had Listeria. I said that Mark should be careful what he says as far as claiming that no one got sick. You are still not sure one way or another are you? Oh wait, I forgot you had a conversation with Mark and now there is NO WAY you had Listeria! GOOD GRIEF!!
While I am touched by your post, as everyone is, the fact remains that Mark McAfee is NOT telling the story the way it happened. Its not about throwing punches, its about being honest. What is wrong with Mary and I wanting the truth to be told. ??? Afterall, it is our children that got sick.
We both understand that NO ONE will know the feeling and truly understand where we are coming from. Yes, you can all imagine but it cant be the same as living it. I take all of that into consideration but when someone is flat out lying…its disheartening.
You came on this blog posting 2nd hand information about *me*. I was alerted and came here to clarify *my* story. I simply asked that next time you give me the courtesy of talking with *me* before speaking for me on a 3rd party blog. Unless you wish to cut the sarcasm and have a genuine conversation with me regarding my experiences, I have nothing more to say to you.
You made a post choosing not to use your name. When I asked if you were Mark McAfee, a few posts later, Mark made a comment using his name. Im sure you can understand why I assumed your comment made using the name moonshine was actually Mark. At no time did he indicate that he was not the author of the comments made by mooshine.
This same dynamic occurred on this blog with you once again chosing not to identify yourself and made a comment about me. I noticed the similarities in the comment and once again wondered if it was Mark. I did apologize in advance if he wasnt the person making this statement. Again he made a comment right after this and chose not to clarify that he was not the author of the comments made by you.
I appreciate the fact that you have identified yourself and acknowledged that you made the statement about counseling and not Mark. I will take the 1st statement you made (which is posted above) in the spirit in which you intended its meaning. However, you own the 2nd statement also and I dont believe it came from a place of caring or concern.
If you spend your weekend worrying about people drinking raw milk then you need to get a life or see a shrink.
Something about the way I communicate my thoughts or feelings about my experience with a child who almost died from a foodborne pathogen bothers you. You take a very defensive stance. I think you are probably 100% sure that your children (if you have young children) will never become ill from drinking raw milk. I wasnt 100% convinced of this when I gave it to Chris. So, yes, when he first became ill, I did feel guilty. I felt I made a poor (actually almost fatal) decision when I gave my son raw milk to drink. I actually think this is a normal reaction under the circumstances Ive experienced. I lived in 4 different hospitals for 2 months with doctors talking about the dangers of raw milk in front of my son. My son actually told me it was my fault he was in the hospital. I shared these honest thoughts on this blog and everyone was very encouraging and supportive in their statements towards me. It helped me enormously and today, one year later, I do not feel guilty about my choice.
As for what I said that triggered your second statement about needing a shrink, let me reframe my statement. Lets pretend that Chris became ill from the spinach outbreak. It is the 1st anniversary of the day Chris went into the hospital (September 7). Im reflecting on the day. I say a prayer thanking God that my son is still alive. I think to myself, the weather is so hot. Cows shed their e-coli in the summer months. I hope theres not another spinach outbreak this year. Would you feel the need to tell me to get a life or see a shrink?
Ruth Ann, I have no issue with you. I dont even know who you are. Its obvious that you respect Mark McAfee and are an advocate for raw milk. I think you probably believe OP milk was not the cause of Chriss illness. Thats O.K. The facts can make an argument in either direction. We all have a right to our opinions. In the future, if we get on this topic again (which I hope we dont), if you have a comment to make, please use your name. I would also appreciate it if you wouldnt personally attack me.
Mary
Anniversaries are a difficult time and health problems with our children hit us in a very deep place, especially when there are "should haves" and "could haves" involved. In my own life, I’ve had to make a conscious effort not to let those demons haunt me. There is really no other way to get by in a healthy way. I’m glad to hear that you are able to get past the guilt, but I also know that trauma is still trauma.
Since I haven’t followed your story, would you mind sharing how your son is doing now?
Amanda
Am I to assume that you live in North Carolina (or a state where raw milk is illegal) and not California? May I ask what your relationship with Mark McAfee is? Is he a relative, a friend?
As moonshine you wrote very intimate information that only Mark McAfee would know; thats why I asked if it was Mark writing the information behind the identity of mooshine. How did you know that Chris was originally diagnosed with Shigella? Why did you think I had my milk tested and they found it to be negative (the milk never ended up being tested)? You are stating intimate details about my sons illness and you dont even know me or anything about our situation except for what Mark told you.
Go back and read the comments that transpired between you and me and then notice how quick Mark identifies himself after I ask if mooshine was him. Then look on this blog where an amazed reader posted the comment and notice the similar pattern of Mark appearing with a comment.
If you say it wasnt you, I believe you. Im sure you can understand why I came to the conclusion I did.
Mary
We were at home on Labor Day Weekend. Lauren was at her fathers girlfriends house. I dont know if they drove to the beach or a nearby lake that weekend. I dont have any personal information about the other children who became ill to answer this question.
Please feel free to ask me any questions you have about my sons illness. I am more than willing to entertain other theories as to how all the children had the same matching blueprint, other than what seems to be the only common variable that could have caused them to become illconsuming OP raw milk.
I dont know how long you have been reading comments on this blog. I found The Complete Patient last March after doing a search on e-coli contamination and raw milk. To my surprise, they were discussing Lauren Herzog. Everyone who frequents this blog has followed the story for the past 6 months.
I would like to state that I drank raw milk for a few years in the late 1970s and early 1980s before Alta Dena Dairys salmonella outbreak. I was not new to raw milk when I made the decision to purchase it for my son to drink.
Listed below are dates that may clarify why Mark has been stating incorrect facts that you have somehow received from him within the close circle of nationwide raw milk drinkers.
Sept. 2nd (maybe), 3rd & 4thChris drank OP raw skim milk (I accidentally purchased skim).
Sept. 4th Chris ate a salad with spinach.
Sept 5thChris develops a headache and fever at about 5:30 p.m.
Sept 6thChris stays home from school and has a low grade fever on and off all day; he has a loose stool BM before he goes to bed
Sept 6thLauren Herzog also has diarrhea
Sept 7thhe wakes up in the middle of the night with another loose stool BM; non stop diarrhea starts at about 8:30 a.m.; he vomits for the 1st time at around 10:00 am; he had 19 BMs by the time my husband picked him up from my in-law at 3:30 p.m.; I got home around 6:30 p.m. and was quite alarmed at how often he was having BMs; at 8:30 p.m. he passed about a of blood; we arrived at the emergency room at about 9:30
Sept 8th or 9thMy husband contacts OP dairy about their milk possibly being contaminated; the doctors are telling us that the milk may have been contaminated with a foodborne pathogen. They asked us all sorts of questions: have you been out of the country, to a petting zoo, a county fair, swimming in a public swimming pool or lake, ate hamburger, raw fish, raw juice, and raw milk.
Sept 10thgiven 1st and 2nd round of antibiotics
Sept 11thChris is diagnosed with HUS and airlifted to the PICU at Kaiser Sunset
Sept 11thLauren Herzog also diagnosed with HUS
Sept 12thLauren Herzog arrives at Loma Linda University Chrildrens Hospital
Sept 13thShiga toxin was isolated and Chris was given the diagnosis of Shigella
Sept 14th Chris is airlifted to Loma Linda University Childrens Hosptial; he begins dialysis
Sept 14thFDA warning about spinach e-coli outbreak
Sept 15thLLUCH doctors disagree with the diagnosis of Shigella; it is changed to e-coli 017:H7
Sept 16thChris has congestive heart failure and is placed on a ventilator
Between Sept 17th and Sept 20th the dept. of agriculture and the FDA contact me on my cell phone. A public health nurse picks up the raw milk bottle and spinach. The CDC interviews us, and Mark McAfee also visits LLUCH.
Sept 20thChris is taken off the ventilator
Sept 21stDole packaged spinach is implicated in the e-coli outbreak
Sept 22ndOP milk recall and dairy is closed
Sept 22ndChris and Lauren both pee for the 1st time after being on dialysis
Sept 29thMilk rally at OP dairy
Sometime after Sept 21st, I contacted the public health nurse to find out what was discovered when they tested the milk and spinach. This is when I was informed that Chris did not meet the prerequisite criteria of having the e-coli bacteria isolated in his BM sample. They were only testing products where the patient had a confirmed case of e-coli contamination. He also didnt eat Dole packaged spinach, so he didnt meet that requirement either. By this time, they had discovered that only people who ate Dole packaged spinach were ill with E-coli 0157:H7. This is when spinach was ruled out as a cause for Chris illness.
I hope this timeline helps clarify the facts about my sons journey with E-coli 0157:H7 and HUS.
Mary
You both should be rejoicing that your children are alive and instead of typing angry threads, spend positive energy and spend time with your children. You keep rehashing the past so you can get upset all over again, for what?
Mary, you still have no factual evidence except for my test- and Lauren was at my house, right? Melissa stated it was my milk, so why are you still stating that there was e-coli in that milk…the test was negative…Do I need to scan it and make a copy and post it for all to see? Get over it, move on with your lives and stop trying to play the blame game. You should not have given your child raw milk, right Mary???Melissa said you should pay attention to labels…you know, your buddy, Melissa. Melissa, you should not have reacted so fast and called the CDC and everyone’s brother and stated that my milk had e-coli, that came from your friend Mary’s thread about her wanting hard evidence before jumping to conclusions. So, you guys bash each other in threads, but you are behind each other 100% in regards to whose fault it is…Mark put that e-coli in there on purpose, right?
For God’s sake why don’t you leave the man alone and move on and move forward with your life. Your children don’t want to be reminded of this, they want to be children, so they don’t need you both with your angry and negative energy giving it to them whether directly or indirectly. The only evidence there is Mark and I have from labs…lots of test were done, not just a couple and the government has those tests too. So what if a cow was found with e-coli in October, it was not the batch that your son or Lauren or my children drank. Was it e-coli 0157H7, Mary? Remember that we all carry e-coli at all times inside of us…what was the strain Mary?
Man, if I was Mark, I would not even reply to you two. I know why he does, but at the same time, he should not have to defend himself. He did not do it on purpose, he came to the hospital to talk to everyone and visit the children- that was genuine. It is his business and his livlihood, so of course he would be passionate about it. He has put millions into that business and you would have done the same and would have felt the same if you were him.
He has been in your shoes, his daugher almost died, so I hope you both are ashamed of yourselves for thinking you are the only people in this world who have had a sick or deathly ill child. My children have been sick and my children have been hurt and my children have scared the daylights out of me. I have seen sickness and watched my father pass away. Whether it is your child or a family member, we should not think that we are the only one’s that have gone through this. That is not genuine, that is attention and looking for sympathy and as far as I am concerned, you are not making very many people happy with your rude and ignorant comments. Get the facts first, get your hard evidence and then make an educated decision based on those facts. Evidence from a lab upholds in court…wishing and hoping as well as trying to put peices of the puzzle together is still not going to get you a "GUILTY" verdict.
We are INNOCENT until proven GUILTY and that is what our judicial system is all about in this great country.
Hopefully neither of you will find yourself in a position where someone is accusing you without factual evidence. Hopefully no one will ever accuse you of trying to kill their child either.
Hopefully you both will learn to let things go and forgive and move on since you both are only making yourselves sick with all of this bad energy.