Mark McAfee had just a few hours to celebrate yesterday’s issuance of a temporary restraining order blocking enforcement of AB 1735–what he called “a big win for California raw milk and producers”—before he learned about the next phase of the government’s campaign against Organic Pastures Dairy Co.
It seems the U.S. Justice Department, in cooperation with the Food and Drug Administration, is conducting a grand jury investigation into OPDC’s sales of raw milk and colostrum sold as pet food to consumers around the country, outside of California. Two of OPDC’s employees have in the last two weeks each received a subpoena to testify in early April before a U.S. District Court grand jury for the Eastern District of California.
The employees, who take phone orders and help administer the dairy’s office, didn’t know what the subpoenas were for until after dinner last evening–just hours after the state superior court issued its temporary restraining order on AB 1735–when they received visits at their homes from two FDA special agents from its Office of Criminal Investigations.
In each case, the agents telephoned first, saying they were following up on the subpoenas, and then showed badges before asking to come into the employees’ homes and question them. The situation bears an eery resemblance to the visit by New York agriculture agents to Meadowsweet Dairy within hours of owners Barb and Steve Smith filing suit against the state last December.
Before I relate what the employees say happened next, I should say that I called one of the FDA special agents, Stephen Jackson, on his cell phone, obtained from the business card he left behind. After I identified myself and told him I was inquiring into the grand jury investigation into OPDC, he said, “I’d prefer you not call this number.” I then asked him if he could refer me to an FDA or Justice Department official who might be able to help me, but he said he couldn’t, and suggested I just call the main number of the U.S. Attorney’s office in Fresno.
One of the employees, Amanda Hall, who has worked for OPDC for about a year, said Jackson and his colleague kept inquiring into the sale of raw milk to customers outside California. “They kept saying, ‘Do you know it’s illegal to sell raw milk outside California?’” When she explained that the milk is labeled as pet food and thus okay, “They said, ‘Who told you that?’ I said I learned it from others in the office…They kept asking me if I knew it was illegal…At first they were nice and polite, but they kept getting more agitated. I think they wanted to hear about Mark.”
There was more to come. One of the agents played a tape recording of Amanda taking a phone order from an FDA agent posing as a customer, inquiring whether it was okay for the “customer’s” eight-month-old child to consume colostrum. “I said it was okay. The FDA has no regulations on colostrum. It’s a dietary supplement. And all products are labeled for pet consumption.”
And then even more: Before the agents left, “One of them asked me, ‘Would you ever consider wearing a wire? If you would wear it, you would be getting information from Mark. You could benefit. You wouldn’t be paid millions, but it would sure help you out.’” Amanda declined, and the agent left a card, saying that if she changed her mind, she should call.
The situation was pretty similar for Lizbeth Eugenia Valdes-Urbieta, who has been at OPDC for two years, except the visit seems to have been more traumatic for her than for Amanda. “I’m pregnant, and I’m a crybaby,” she says. Not only that, her husband, mother, and father were present in the house, and her mother was becoming ever more frightened as she heard the agents pressing their questions. “She asked my husband, ‘Is this legal?’ He told her it was.”
They went through the routine about it being illegal to sell raw milk outside California, she says, “And they told me, ‘Don’t worry, you’re not in trouble.’ Then they had a tape of me talking to a customer. He asked me if we ship outside California. He told me he had a son, one year old, and can he drink colostrum?” She says she told him that the children of OPDC employees consume colostrum. “They kept asking me, ‘Who told you about the pet food labels?’”
Maybe because she was so nervous, they didn’t ask her to wear a wire. “After they left, I was shaking,” Lizbeth says.
Mark says he had extensive communication with FDA officials about his pet food labeling back in 2003 and 2004, and that the agency eventually sent him an advisory in early 2005 that “there is no requirement that pet food products have premarket approval by the FDA.”
One last note: Grand jury investigations are normally secret events in which prosecutors try to convince jurors to vote criminal indictments. Witnesses who are subpoenaed have no right to have a lawyer present and can expect to be cross-examined by a skilled government attorney. The identities of jurors are kept secret as well. Mark says he and his employees decided to go public about the grand jury situation after a meeting this morning of the dairy’s dozen employees. “We’re a family here,” he told me. “We’re going to protect ourselves. Our only weapon is the truth.”
But he added that he’s being practical as well. “I’m ready for a raid right now. All the computers are backed up.”
His theory for the government’s latest action: “Our sales are going through the roof. We’re doing $100,000 a week in sales—last quarter, it was $75,000. People are going nuts for raw milk. The FDA is going nuts the other way. I’m the snake. They want to cut off the head of the snake.”
Strange coincidence, these night-time visits by special agents to individuals’ homes, just after OPDC wins a big court case. It’s a good thing Mark isn’t paranoid. He might otherwise think there were people out to get him.
In this case, the community may have done it to itself. Apparently in the 1604 hearing an out-of-state person got up and announced his/her consumption of the "pet food."
The core problem here is that just because it’s labeled "pet food" doesn’t make it OK. A case of "pet food" *wink *wink suggests that the product is mislabeled. I don’t actually have any experience with the "pet food" since I am right here in California, so I don’t know how the gals handle the orders. They should be emphasizing to customers that the product is not for human consumption.
The colostrum is another matter since it’s a supplement. It’s interesting that the phone tapes focused on colostrum.
Amanda
And some of you still think I’m paranoid when I say this a war about government intentionally and knowingly taking away rights. Are you waking up yet?
Bob Hayles
Thornberry Village Homestead
Jasper, GA
Thornberry Village Homestead…a small goat dairy owned by God, managed by Bob and Tyler.
this is nuts
its just milk!!!!!!
Colostrum as a supplement is a federal matter–supplements can be sold without FDA approval, so long as they don’t make health claims.
Why can they do this? Because they can. Because no FDA or other bureaucratic official is accountable to any one of us – not to you, not to me. They’re not elected, and thus, can’t be unelected. And we have no say in the matter.
Mommaofmany – I believe the best thing you can do is to tell everyone (letters to the editor are good, too) you can what our government is doing – nighttime, Gestapo-like visits, intimidation, etc., all in an effort to put a hardworking person – a farmer! – out of busines, and force the rest of us to eat their polluted, GMO, BST processed garbage.
Do me a favor, everyone. Find out what you’re government is doing to us. The situation with OP is just the tip of the iceberg, and if they can conquer OP, the rest of us farmers are next, and then they’re coming for you.
Read this:
http://www.infowars.com
Fightening stuff is ahead. We ain’t seen nothin’ yet.
If something is labeled for pet consumption, why would that affect OP? He has no control over what people do with the product after they purchase it.
Years ago, many elderly in this country were eating pet food. And apparently still do… I wonder if those pet food workers were visited?
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CEEDB1130F935A25752C1A965958260
How traumatic for those people.
Here in Calif, selling colostrum does require a permit but my understanding is that OPDC can actually ship it across the country since it’s not a dairy product.
Amanda
My mom talks about eating "pet food grade tuna" when she was *real short* on a dollar. I don’t know if there really was such a thing, but it sounds like something I’d rather not experience.
The issue with OP and pet labels is not just what is on the container but how they represent it in the sale. That’s why the agents made the phone calls — to see what the sales people would actually say. Legally, they should probably say "Hey, you’re from XX state. You know I can’t sell you milk for human consumption."
Amanda
There is such a thing as personal responsibility, and if the product is clearly labeled as "Pet Food, Not For Human Consumption", as is required of raw milk here in Georgia, there has to be some of that personal responsibility laid at the consumers feet. If one buys said "pet food", reads the label (as they should), sees the pet food designation, and chooses to consume it anyway, that consumer bears some responsibility too.
No…the producer should not lie, and there would be civil remedies available to the consumer if the producer DID lie, but I frankly don’t see where there should be a criminal investigation.
Mark and OP are being persecuted for having the gall to simply do what should be the law anyway…allowing folks to make their own food choices without a nanny state for them.
I’m not a lawyer…just a dumb farmer…but I thing the state of California is walking on very thin ice in this persecution. I’d like to hear from Gary or someone else from the FTCLDF on this, but given the past actions, and the timing of this when juxtaposed against the recent unfavorable ruling against California, I believe a very good case, civil OR criminal, could be made that this constitutes malicious prosecution.
More and more I learn that I love my country but hate my government.
Bob Hayles
Thornberry Village Homestead
Jasper, GA
Thornberry Village Homestead…a small goat dairy, owned by God, managed by Bob and Tyler.
This will be a watershed case for the rest of the country. If this battle in California/NY is won or lost, you will likely see many other states follow suit based on the results. Raw Milk has won many battles in many states but that can change. The BIG guys are behind all this nonsense with all their money and the only power the little guy has is a vote.
It is imperative that if you do not wish to lose your rights you must stand and fight for them. Fight with your checkbook and your vote. Call the elected officials over the FDA, CDFA, etc.. Send support to the legal defense fund and continue to support your dairy and your state raw milk associations. Also, remember it only takes a second to send a note or say to your farmer I really appreciate all you do. I can only imagine how stressful all this must be one these farmers.
Rod
A Google of "publicservantquestionnaire.pdf" will find you a copy. At minimum, it gives a person immediate power and can provide time to consult legal advise.
Colostrum doesn’t contain blood (hemoglobin). It does contain immunoglobulins, which aid in immune function.
I dont see the description of pet food mentioned.
This marketing strategy clearly implies that if you live in another state other than California, and you would like to purchase any OP product, it is available to you.
Maybe Mr. McAfee needs to be a little more subtle in his advertising. He could a least pretend hes selling his products for pet consumption.
Kristin — This is from the FAQ on the Organic Pastures website:
**
13. Why does colostrum appear pink or yellow sometimes?
All bovine colostrum contains some blood cells (RBC and WBC). Sometimes this is visible and sometimes it is not depending upon the cow and whether she had some red blood in her first milk. This is normal. OPDC attempts to limit the amount of visible blood that is in colostrum, but on occasion the colostrum may appear slightly pink. The yellow color in the colostrum is caused by Lactoferrin: Rich vitamin levels and the natural fat color of milk fat. All of this colostrum is "Nectar of the gods," is normal, and completely safe.
**
There was a time when I was just about living on colostrum and sending my dad down to civilization to pick up a dozen pints of what he called my "joy juice." I am not trying to be inflammatory by mentioning "blood," I am just pointing out why the law makes the distinction.There may be other reasons why, but this is one of them.
Amanda
Given this, why should OP be singled out for different treatment? Their product, when shipped to states that require it, is CLEARLY labeled "Pet Food". The PRODUCT is labeled.
What’s your problem with this? Do you really need nanny care rather than being an adult who takes personal responsibility for what you do, and checks to see if what you order is really what you want and meets YOUR personal safety standards, rather than the standards of a government that gave us Thalomide babies?
Bob Hayles
Amanda
Amanda
The FDA gave us Thalomide babies in the 50’s and 60’s, and currently they approve drugs that do more harm than good. Anti depressants that, until very recently, increased the incidence of suicide in young people. Watch the drug ads on TV…there is more of the commercial time spent telling you of all the side effects than telling you what alleged good the drug does. I cannot remember the name of the drug, but there is a medication, FDA approved, to treat "Restless Leg Syndrome", which I suffer from. One of the cautions in the commercial is that it may cause alcohol or sex addiction. Imagine that…an FDA approved drug that might have you sleeping with everyone in town. No thanks…I’ll just deal with the restless legs.
Then there is the USDA…you know the nanny that is supposed to protect our food supply…the same nanny that managed to ignore the actions of the Westland/Hallmark meat company right up until animal rights activists released that damning video.
Are these the nanny’s we are supposed to rely on? Go ahead if you wish…I’ll rely on knowing my supplier, nanny approved or not.
I have no problem with folks having USDA/FDA/etc approved items available to them. If they consider that protecting them, and wish to look for those seals of approval, fine. No problem. Just allow me the same right to reject those same approvals and make my own choices, taking responsibility for my own decisions, if I wish.
It’s just like my feelings on fast food. I consider it unhealthy, and I believe it will eventually kill you…but I won’t suggest that Micky D’s and Burger King be shut down. If someone wants to eat every meal they consume at one of those places, that’s their right, regardless of what I think of those nutritional choices. Just give me the very same right to make my own nutritional choices as well.
Bob Hayles
Thornberry Village Homestead
Jasper, GA
Thornberry Village Homestead…a small goat dairy, owned by God, managed by Bob and Tyler.
Agreed Amanda, I can’t imagine this being America if our choices were taken away.
In following the comments, I find myself thinking about regulation. I’m a believer in the idea; the introduction of regulation was a progressive reform. The problem is not that there is regulation, the problem is that the system we have is deeply corrupted by the very interests it was intended to protect us from. Corrupt regulation is the problem. Much great history has been written about how this came to be in America, but essentially, when regulation became politically necessary, industry got the systems put in place that they wanted — the ones that were easiest for them to manipulate.
That’s why the agencies that are charged with food safey and protecting the public health aren’t going after agribusiness to change its dangerous practices. Because they don’t really work for us. They’re going after agribusiness’ competition instead, because they pretty much work for them. (FTCLDF, however, does work for us!)
I think this could be cleaned up if Congress enacted much more stringent rules on how agencies operate — but that would require a Congress that was independent of cash from those same interests. Money doesn’t just talk, it dictates. We have to figure out how to get around that.
Anyway — honest regulation, real regulation, would not be doing this to us. Real regulation would be our friend. Just thinking about the baby and the bathwater…
So much for helpful nannies.
Again, FTCLDF has been pressing Rep. Ron Paul’s office to try and obtain hearings on his HR4077 which, with the changes suggested by FTCLDF (www.farmtoconsumer.org) would cause HR4077 to eliminate the FDA interstate rule, and leave regulation of raw milk to the states. The Committee which is holding HR4077 (with no hearings yet scheduled) is the US House Energy and Commerce Committee, chaired by the dean of the House, Rep. John Dingell of Michigan. It would be critically important to urge Rep. Dingell to have his Committee favorably report out HR4077, and then obviously urge your representatives everywhere to support it and get this bad regulation of FDA’s off the books. Without this FDA regulation, the federal case against Mark and the threat against similarly situated farmers who live near state borders and who otherwise serve markets in other states where raw milk is not available, would vaporize.
This should be a note for all our readers, if you constantly, get in the face of the government (federal, state, or local), eventually someone will take notice. It really sounds like Organic Pastures has been pushing the letter of the law for a while. It looks and sounds to me that Organic Pastures is unnecessarily putting their employees in the line of fire, and Organic Pastures should think seriously about that.
Organic Pastures may eventually ruin it for those fellow farmers just trying to get by and lets not forget about the little buyer that just want a glass of milk. Organic Pastures don’t look at the government to find your problems; you only have to look as far as a mirror.
Eh- no. May haves some RBCs, but no blood.
Kirsten — OK. It’s just what a dairy person told me and is also on Organic Pasture’s site. I certainly have not made a study of it. I do know that cannot be mingled with market milk here in California.
Amanda
It’s tough for folks not to be passionate about what they believe in. It’s very frustrating to have government (for whatever reason, tyrannical or not) approving modern industrial food while working so diligently to ban a food that in its traditional state has nourished mankind for millennia. Ultimately all we’re asking for is a choice, which is what this country is all about.
Perhaps if they start over regulating baseball cards or something else you’re more interested in, you’ll feel a call to action as well.
I believe this is so true. And that is why we haven’t given up on something we believe is a natural right.
As adults, if they require any entity to tell them what they can and cannot comsume, then they surely do need a nanny. Thankfully the majority of adults are able to make informed decisions and a nanny is not needed nor wanted.
The government is anti-raw milk because so many children are the victims of an illness when the milk occasionally contains a pathogen. Kirsten made a point about giving children probiotics instead of raw milk.
Maybe the raw milk revolution group should focus its energies on making it legal for adults to drink it; just like our alcohol laws.
It is not illegal to consume raw milk anywhere in this country. The legal apparatus is focussed entirely on the farmer. In other words, it is legal for EVERYONE to drink raw milk, now.
Concerned person, are you suggesting "prohibition" style laws intruding into the family’s realm? How about second-hand smoke – we know thousands of people, mostly kids, are sickened and some die every year from their parents’ smoking – should that be illegal too? How about parents who serve their kids wine, or other kinds of alcohol?
I’m not arguing that these things are good. In fact, they are probably stupid. However, I’m not sure I would want to start giving the government the power to police every stupid thing that may go on in a home.
BTW I do not think feeding kids raw milk is stupid, nor should it certainly be illegal. My point is simply, this is not a road any freedom-loving person would want to start down. And I don’t think the government is after raw milk because "so many children" are victims. The cases of alleged sickness from raw milk are few and far between, and they are many, many times less frequent than the sicknesses caused by tainted hot dogs, deli meats, spinach, hamburger, and other non-milk foods based on CDC statistics.
BTW…using "concerned person’s" logic, we need to ban automobile ang revert back to using horses and our feet for transportation. Many adult AND children’s lives with the auto accidents that would be avoided.
Bob Hayles
Thornberry Village Homestead
Jasper, GA
Thornberry Village Homestead…a small goat dairy owned by God, managed by Bob and Tyler.
Give me a good arguement why adults can’t choose to buy/drink a product that could have a possible pathogen. They can choose to smoke and drink. Both can kill them. This whole arguement is about the possible danger of drinking raw milk if it is contaminated. Nothing else.
Maybe the raw milk revolution could become stronger and legal to sell if children were left out of the loop. I look at this compromise as a win, win. Nothing is perfect in the world.
But let’s be clear, folks. It is not the GOVERNMENT that cares about raw milk. It is PRIVATE INDUSTRY that is pushing government officials to do this stuff, and they are most happy to threaten and embarrass government officials who will not do their bidding. It’s interesting that PRIVATE INDUSTRY is all too happy to promote Free Trade as long as they are not themselves threatened by it. When they are, they lean on the government to destroy their enemies. Read the history of the United Fruit Company. And then read THE SHOCK DOCTRINE by Naomi Klein. The government, by the way, is not really in charge.
And oh yes, the free marketeers who are always screaming about government handouts to individuals are only too willing to take whatever taxpayer handouts their pawns in the government will give them. Witness Bear Stearns, Halliburton, Bechtel, and all the rest.
This administration has been particularly adept at getting rid of career regulators and putting in their own people, mostly from the very industries they are supposed to be regulating, and we are now getting what way too many people voted for because we are allowed to hear only one side of everything. (How many, for example, have heard of the "success" in Iraq, but not of the Winter Soldier hearings last week? – http://www.ivaw.org)
Libertarians, repent your sins and help turn this around!!!
Perhaps the government should be anti-cantaloupe since so many children become ill from eating contaminated cantaloupes. Maybe they will ban imported cantaloupes! That will save the kids!
however, one thing they can’t do (yet) is actually control gov’t, they can only sway the vocal minority and hope (as is often the case) that the silent majority stays that way till the law is enacted.
we do have captured regulators and some captured legislators, but it’s not too late nor impossible to fight back and win.
we need to become and remain vocal.
save the children? gov’t and big business is going to save the children? ask yourself this: has big business and/or gov’t ever "saved" anyone except themselves? if you think so please post an example…
raw milk may be our focus here, but it’s really about choice and freedom to choose. if we’re to pick our battles wisely, and raw milk is a good platform. once the battle starts it’s can’t be surrendered or forfeited, if it is then we lose a lot of ground that may never be effectively reclaimed.
perhaps the gov’t should take all children at birth and raise them as they see fit, how can they trust any of us to always do what’s "best" for the children?
it seems clear to me that those who want to ban all raw milk carry the banner of big dairy as they skew data, smear information, fear monger and harrass.
is civil disobedience needed? hugh betcha!
Just so there is no misunderstanding;I was being facetious. I do believe that the majority of parents do what they feel is best for their children according to their beliefs and knowledge. I do believe that big business and the governments need to stay out of private lives.
"it’s really about choice and freedom to choose"
I am sure that the majority would agree with you here. I certainly do.
"perhaps the gov’t should take all children at birth and raise them as they see fit"
Didn’t Hitler do this? I forget what it was called.
I think that the increasing amount who are becoming and remaining vocal may be a reason why the big corps are screaming and pushing their agendas. More and more people are shying away from the processed foods and searching out the less processed foods (I know that I push the local farmers markets every chance I get). Perhaps combined with the decaying economy it is putting great fear into the corps? Thus they(corps/government) are leaning more on the "little" guy and the organinc producers? It’s a thought that I wouldn’t doubt be true. I also doubt that the huge factory farms are capabale of becoming truely organic.
I wish OP and/or Claravale would set up a booth at the Farmers Market under the bridge in Sacramento on Sundays. It is opened all year, and besides fresh produce, there are eggs, fish, free range pork, sometimes pastured beef, cheeses, olive oils, wines, flowers, herbs, etc. It would be so nice.
Our regulatory system is far from perfect. Capitalism/democracy is a power based system. Those with the most money have the most power. Abuse of power takes place in all walks of life. Get over it.
I dont think the dairy industry is threatened by the possible profits lost due to raw milk consumption. Soy, almond and goats milk also competes for business. Theres not a big campaign against these products.
What about the power of the medical establishment? What do you think their opinion is of contaminataed raw milk? Doctors deal with the outcome of ingested pathogens. Do you think the AMA is going to support the raw milk movement after dealing first hand with vicitms of HUS.
Freedom to choose! All of you are drinking raw milk right now. You do have the freedom to choose. So its not legal to sell it. Who cares? Why make a big fuss and bring attention to the whole matter. Theres a black market thats flourishing.
Mr. McAfee blogs here and brags about the increase in his business. I bet it is a direct result of his increase in sales of pet food. Whos making the most money in the United States from the sale of raw milk? Has anyone given thought that all this attention might shut down the largest, legal raw milk supplier? Wheres that going to leave the raw milk movement?
Go ahead. Stay on the same course. There have been three outbreaks of Ecoli 0157:H7 related to raw milk consumption in a two year period. Do a little research. What percentage of persons who became ill where children? What percentage also developed HUS? How many were children? The only saving grace it that no child died. I believe it will only be a matter of time until the first child dies from raw milk contaminated with E coli 0157:H7; watch what that does to the raw milk movement.
The raw milk website encourages people to make baby formula with raw milk. They even have a recipe posted. The day will come when a baby dies.
So again, if you want raw milk to be legal for all, I think its a tough fight if children are included. I believe more progress could be made if it became legal to sell for only adults to drink.
No…I know the point you are trying to make and failing miserably at it. I also know from your quote that you have bought into the government/big corporate disinformation that is used to excuse almost EVERY proposal that might meet with general disapproval…"It’s for the children".
Hillary’s socialized medicine when she was first lady…was "for the children".
No child left behind, an abysmal failure, was proposed as "for the children".
Force vaccination, regardless of parent input, in Texas for HPV vaccinations was "for the children.
Abortion is often portrayed as "for the children", as it will purportedly prevent unwanted, and thus abused and ignored, children.
All one has to do to kill opposition to ANY government atrocity is to find a way to portray it as "for the children"…then no one dare continue opposition because they must then be "against the children", and we can’t have that, can we?
Quit letting the government do your thinking for you…use your God given intelligence to think for yourself.
YOU decide, for yourself, what is good for your children, and I’ll do the same for mine. Neither of us need the nanny state to make those decisions for us.
Bob Hayles
Thornberry Village Homestead
Jasper, GA
Thornberry Village Homestead…a small goat dairy, owned by God, managed by Bob and Tyler.
This is about worldviews. We view it differently, thats all. Im not opposed to any of the examples you have given as failures or negatives.
[Hillary’s socialized medicine when she was first lady…was "for the children".
No child left behind, an abysmal failure, was proposed as "for the children".
Force vaccination, regardless of parent input, in Texas for HPV vaccinations was "for the children.
Abortion is often portrayed as "for the children", as it will purportedly prevent unwanted, and thus abused and ignored, children.]
By the way, you left out our entire social services system. This was initiated to help the children.
There will always be unintended consequences with all programs that assist people, but I believe it is better than not doing anything at all. I support socialized medicine, NCLB, and abortion. You dont. We have different perspectives on the problem and how to solve it. Im a very pragmatic person. I dont believe anything will ever be perfect. Life is full of give and take and so is the democratic system we live in.
With that said, I do use my God given intelligence to think for myself. I just think differently than you. Welcome to the real world.
So Bob, go ahead and fight the big fight against everything the government is doing wrong and preventing you from some right that you perceive as lost. Thats your privilege as an American. Just dont verbally bully others that view something different than the way you do.
Happy Easter.
healthy cows produce healthy milk. period.
dirty mega-farm systems produce dirty products. their only recourse is to try and sterilize the end product.
how is that a good or viable or sustainable system?
i get tired of hearing those who don’t really know spouting off about pathogens in raw milk. the truth is that early in the industrial revolution major mistakes were made and milk was violated and contaminated after the fact, as well as cows being taken off their natural diet of grass and forced to eat waste products and grains unfit for their rudiment stomachs.
the reason we have ecoli-H7 is because of mega dairies in the first place…
that’s the problem here… not raw milk. the whole system is turned up-side down to benefit giant corporations as they promote fear and preach dogma.
sue the gov’t for practicing (a form of) religion as they surpress true science facts and realities by continuing to force this issue.
Perhaps it is your mind that is closed? I, as others feel, the government is not needed to mandate what I or my children can or cannot consume, nor do I want them or anyone else to tell me how to raise/feed my children.
"What do you think their opinion is of contaminataed raw milk? Doctors deal with the outcome of ingested pathogens. Do you think the AMA is going to support the raw milk movement after dealing first hand with vicitms of HUS."
What of the contaminated pasturized dairy? You did not mention it. Nor do you mention the contaminated other foods. Raw dairy is such a small portion of contracted pathogens.Doctors deal with the outcomes from many avenues, obesity (american diets are the main contributing facter here),accidents,birth defects from environmental factors/medications,ect. Again raw dairy is such a small vehical of contamination within the whole picture.
The AMA? The same entity who pushed cigarettes before the 60s? It is not the great entity that many assume. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Medical_Association
"You do have the freedom to choose."
Indeed, that is supposed to be the American way.
"So its not legal to sell it. Who cares?"
Many care. And it is legal to sell it now in CA. Are you suggesting that people delibertly do illegal things?
" Why make a big fuss and bring attention to the whole matter. Theres a black market thats flourishing."
I am not understanding your stance on the legalities.
"Whos making the most money in the United States from the sale of raw milk?"
What is your point? Who is making the most money in the US from the sale of factory farmed milk? Apparently, it appears that it makes a difference to you, why is that?
"Has anyone given thought that all this attention might shut down the largest, legal raw milk supplier?"
It appears that the government is trying to do just that, and also shut down all raw dairy farms. How UnAmerican of them!
‘Wheres that going to leave the raw milk movement?"
Just as booze flowed early last century, raw dairy will be around.
How many outbreaks of Ecoli 0157:H7 were related to pasturized dairy consumption in the last two year period? What did your research show? Do site the links for others to read. What was done in regards to any child dieing from pasturized contaminated dairy.
"I believe more progress could be made if it became legal to sell for only adults to drink."
I think fast foods should be illegal for children. Will they ban that or make it illegal? Of course not, the corps would lose too much money. Look at what it has done and continues to do to our children.
"sarcastic answers only prove what an inflexible mindset you have"
Inflexable mindset? Is that because I am not swayed to your way of thinking? If you don’t want your kids to drink raw dairy, then don’t give it to them. I didn’t give my kids fast/junk food nor sodas growing up, it was that simple.
If you don’t like what you read here, it is your choice to move on.
Sylvia, you may be shocked to hear that I support the right for an adult to drink raw milk. I also support the right for adults to use illegal drugs and if a woman wants to sell her body, I also support her right to do just that. Or if a woman wants to kill her baby during the 1st trimester of a pregnancy, go for it. Its her body and her baby. No one has the right to tell adults what to do in their personal lives. This is America.
However, I draw the line when it comes to children. No one has the right to abuse a child just because it is their child. Abuse comes in many forms: emotional/psychological, physical, sexual and neglect. If I was queen of the world, fast food would be illegal for children to consume. In my opinion it falls into the category of child neglect and physical abuse because what it does to the human body. A soda has never touched the lips of my children. So Syliva, we do have something in common.
So hear me loud and clear. Im not anti-raw milk. I believe the raw milk movement could get their beloved raw milk legal in all states if the focus is on For Adults Only.
When a pathogen happens to venture into a batch of raw milk, children are the ones who pay the price. Why go there if you dont have to? As hugh betcha points out, ecoli 0157:H7 is a new pathogen to our food supply. It wasnt there over the thousands of years people were drinking raw milk. Its new and its deadly. Its not worth taking the risk on a child.
Sylvia, you need to do your own research on 0157:H7 and raw milk. See what you find. It wont be beneficial if I do it for you. I can give you a hint. Do a search using Washington State/raw milk/Ecoli 0157:H7. There are two separate outbreaks.
healthy cows produce healthy milk. period.]
This is a fallacy. 2 outbreaks of ecoli 0157:H7 in a one year period of time. One was a cowherd program and the other a dairy. Both occurred in the State of Washington (2005 & 2006) where raw milk is legal to sell. How do you explain this?
What about the 143 million pounds of beef that was just recalled and found their way into school lunch programs. He is not crying about the children. I don’t hear curious being indignant about that.
There is always someone (or is it the same person using a different name) baiting others. Now if you are for raw milk you are anti-government, a claim tha this is so absurd that it boggles the mind and diverts attention away from David’s post
It’s curious this time. Who will it be next time? How will the rest of us respond?
Will we react to the same old repeated ridciulous and illogical claims or will we ignore him.
His kind of posts only inflame and really don’t illuminate except perhaps to give insight into what the opposition is thinking.
This may be what the next desperate attack will look like.
I agree and certainly the children need this milk the most to build their bodies and immune system.
I do not allow my children to eat hamburgers, packaged lettuce or spinach, alfalfa sprouts, salami or raw milk. I also wont let them touch animals at a petting zoo and I check bacteria counts before I take my children to the beach.
Salmonella outbreaks have occurred multiple times from fresh squeezed O.J., tomatoes and cantaloupes. I also avoid these foods for my children unless Ive purchased the items myself and serve them at home.
We use car seats and seatbelts for our children because it could save their lives. I view the foods I allow my children to eat in the same vein. Im particular about the high risk foods and avoiding them, especially when eating in a restaurant, because it could save one of my childrens lives. There are no guarantees in life, but I wont make reckless choices when it comes to my childrens safety.
I hope all of you on this blog are taking pathogen contamination serious with all the food you serve your children.
And remember that risk does not mean cause.
Children do not NEED Raw milk to build their immune systems. There are other ways. Besides, what if a child was a first time drinker, got sick (ECOLI), and dies from it?
Raw Milk IS a high risk food for e-coli.
If you look up ECOLI anywhere, Raw dairy is one of the foods listed as a risk.
Could you give me a few examples of food that you consider to be low risk foods?
The association between e. coli and properly produced raw milk is non existent and is mostly in the minds of government regulators,the FDA and a few people on this blog.
If you are that worried about e. coli perhaps all children should be encased in a plastic bubble and sealed off from the world.
Children are more at risk from eating spinach and luncheon meats and pasteurized milk (which recently killed a couple of men in Mass.)
I don’t hear about that from you Stacy. Where is your indignation about that?
Education cures ignorance, but stupidity can’t be fixed.
Sorry David but, finally, I had to.
Bob Hayles
Thornberry Village Homestead
Jasper, GA
Thornberry Village Homestead…a small goat dairy, owned by God, managed by Bob and Tyler.
I am reading a very interesting and informative book at the moment, about dissonance theory, or cognitive dissonance. The title is Mistakes were Made (but not by me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts, by Carol Tavris & Elliot Aronson. I remember learning about cognitive dissonance in communications classes during college in the 80s, but I guess I didn’t really absorb its significance at the time. But wow, I’m sure "getting it" now and seeing signs of it every day in my self and others. Perhaps when I first learned about dissonance I needed some more life experience or maturity for some context.
In a nutshell, dissonance theory is how we rationalize and self-justify our actions and beliefs (no matter what those beliefs are) sometimes without supporting evidence and sometimes in the face of opposing evidence. *No one* is immune to this self-justification, as it is also how we get on without constantly questioning everything we do, no matter what the significance.
But if we are completely unaware of how we daily commit to continual or escalating self-justification, even in the face of strong evidence to the contrary, then we are also in danger of making decisions with potentially disastrous consequences. This applies to sooooo many current issues that face each of us and it especially is significant when people have the power to make decisions that affect a lot of other peoples’ lives, such as political, corporate, and spiritual leaders, as well as bureaucrats, "experts", etc. On many levels dissonance theory certainly applies to the raw milk issues and industrial food issues.
And dissonance theory has major implications as to why we can see/justify "our" side of an issue (any issue) so clearly, and wonder why someone else can be so "off target" on the same issue. The other side is experiencing exactly the same thing, self-justifying their beliefs/action and assuming the "our" side is hopelessly biased, naive, or uninformed.
For instance from an earlier comment, "I read some of this rhetoric and wonder how I can live in such a different world than all of you.". I think everyone thinks that at some point, perhaps frequently.
Understanding dissonance theory would go a long way toward explaining why that writer cannot understand some, if not much, of the support for raw milk, especially for children. Having been on the "drinking raw milk would be crazy" side not so long ago, I think I can still see why there is such a divide, because I can still remember how I used to view milk. That writer has not yet experienced the same degree of dissonance that has moved my family and many others to the raw milk side of things, the side that sees that real milk is pastured, raw and unprocessed; that conventional milk is produced in unhealthy ways and is adulterated extensively to reduce risk; and that evidence that access to properly produced raw milk contributes to a stronger immune systems and increased resistance to pathogens.
That writer seems to have experienced some dissonance with the pathogen potential of other problematic foods – but the self-justification side is still insisting on the more conventional route of avoidance and strict government regulation and interference (making raw milk *for adults only*, like porn).
For some who haven’t held "conventional views of raw milk" for some time, it may be difficult to understand "how people can hold such opposition to raw milk access". In terms of the dissonance and self-justification of positions, it goes both ways. Ideally, one continually performs "reality checks" and makes adjustments based on new or more compelling evidence, but most of the time, people just stick to what they think are their core beliefs and see everyone else as deluded.
I hadn’t recognized it as dissonance until recently, but I have been increasingly aware of some "reality checks" in my own life in the past few years, which have really shifted a few paradigms for me: what "health" is/isn’t and how to obtain/keep it, the role of "medicine" and the medical industry, teh importance of diet, the food supply, justice issues, the role of government, politics, how to educate my child, and more).
I highly suggest the book to everyone (or at least look up cognitive dissonance on wikipedia.org), not for any particular argument side, but because this is a human nature issue that has implications for everyone, when we make mundane as well as monumental decisions. And certainly when dealing with divisive issues, awareness of dissonance theory could go a long way toward finding some common ground rather than rigid dividing lines.
If I can teach 9th graders how to view another person perspective with repect,hopefully you can learn this skill also.
Looks like cp is offended.
Since cp is a 9th grade teacher she thinks she knows better than others.
As a health teacher I’m sure that you merely regurgitate the the medical party line.
American consumers can have all the fast food, processed food, junk food, tobacco and booze they want. Meanwhile the FDA is attempting to deny a nutritionally complete food such as organic raw milk to thousands of Californians who rely on this product for its immune boosting qualities. Many of us rely on this product for treatment of serious illnesses. So why is the FDA now targeting Organic Pastures which has provided raw milk to California consumers without incident for eighty years? This despite the fact that a Hollister superior court judge has filed an injunction against the California Legislature and Dept of Food and AG restraining them from any action against the California raw milk industry.
Something is terribly wrong when the very credibility of the FDA comes into question almost daily as previously approved drugs and products are found to cause death or illness and are recalled.
Datails are explained in the following link.
Your Attention Please,
http://www.thecompletepatient.com/journal/2008/3/20/of-nighttime-agent-visits-phone-tapes-and-secret-wires-now-o.html