Why Is It So Much More Difficult to Deal with Ambiguity on Food-Borne Illness?
Saturday, June 14, 2008 at 12:22PM
We’ve been very fortunate on this blog to have had a number of people willing to share their experiences and knowledge around food-borne illness.
First, there’s Mark McAfee of Organic Pastures Dairy Co. Mark is open almost to a fault. He can’t resist commenting, and in so doing, turns himself into a lightning rod. He discussed his views of what happened regarding the illnesses of the six children, ad nauseum.
Then there’s Mary McGonigle-Martin, mother of Chris Martin, followed by Melissa Herzog, mother of Lauren Herzog. They both discussed the situations from their perspectives, to the point of exhaustion for many readers.
And finally, we’ve had any number of extremely well informed participants in these debates—Miguel, Dave Milano, Steve Bemis, Sylvia, C2, Kirsten, milkfarmer, and many others too numerous to mention.
Now, we can dispute these individuals—especially Mark, Mary, Melissa—in terms of what they said, how they said it, when they said what, and so forth, but the simple fact that the discussion took place is highly unusual.
The reason it’s so unusual is that, despite the fact that millions of people (the CDC says 77 million) are victims of food-borne illness each year, there are three huge obstacles that prevent the kind of discussion that took place here.
The first obstacle is the legal/public relations obstacle. There are very very few business executives who, when their companies are identified as possible sources of foodborne illness, are willing to candidly talk about it. Most fear the Bill Marlers of the world, and are advised by their attorneys not to say anything because it could be held against them in a court suit. Mark is very much the exception, for any number of reasons.
The second obstacle is the privacy obstacle. Patient privacy is protected, as well it should be, and so it’s difficult for the media to locate victims of food-borne illness. Many of these victims don’t want to get in the middle of media debates about the topic. In the September 2006 California case, only two of the six have come forward—Mary, to the extent she shared many personal and painful details of her family’s ordeal.
The third obstacle is that our government officials and their scientific advisers refuse to be candid about the subject. So we are left with documents like those produced by California public health department and the CDC that raise more questions than they answer.
Now, why do the government officials and advisers—these lions of our scientific, public health, and medical establishment—resist being candid? As much as we want to blame conspiracies, I think the real reason is very simple: they don’t fully understand the problem of food-borne illness.
In fact, none of us fully understand it. If we did, we wouldn’t be having the debates we have here. Some of us think we understand it—I agree with those who see our obsession with pathogens and food sterilization as having created the unintended effect of weakening people’s immune systems. But I can’t prove it conclusively. The establishment view that we just need to tighten cleanliness up some more to completely rid ourselves of the pathogens holds sway. But they can’t prove their case conclusively either.
The government’s problem is that the officials are unwilling to admit they don’t have all the answers. There was an interesting exchange in Congress yesterday to this point, in hearings about the salmonella outbreak affecting tomatoes, reported by The Wall Street Journal. “Some lawmakers expressed exasperation with the (FDA). ‘The longer you sit on this committee, the more depressed you get, because the issues never get resolved and crop up again and again,’ said Rep. Diana DeGette (D., Colo.), who for years has urged the agency to develop a program to track food from the farm.”
We can argue about this legislator’s perspective all we want [just over the fact she wants a tracking system for all food], but the reality is she is frustrated because the scientists at the FDA won’t tell her/us they don’t fully understand the food-borne illness phenomenon.
The same frustration is spilling over onto this blog. There’s this feeling, I know I get it sometimes—why the hell don’t Marler and C2 and CP see the big picture? And they get frustrated with being labeled and mocked, and the beat goes on.
I’m not sure exactly why the scientific establishment can't bring itself to admit it doesn't fully understand what's happening. Maybe because Congress appropriates money and drug companies come up with highly profitable products and so on and so forth based on the conventional wisdom. To say you don’t know—as admirable a human trait as that might be--well, it doesn’t inspire the confidence that legislators and investors like.
In terms of this blog's etiquette, I urge people to be more respectful. In that vein, I strongly suggest avoiding identity switches. The most disrespectful individuals seem to be those hiding behind ad hoc signatures. Don't write stuff here you wouldn't say directly to another individual in conversation. The way most blogs counter such problems is to require signup info. Let’s see if we can avoid that.
Reader Comments (42)
Codex Alimentarius
http://www.brasstv.com/page/191.html
Its worse than one can imagine, and the war on raw dairy is a part of it.
http://www.braschecktv.com/page/191.html
Ken Conrad
I've been on this blog long enough to know that is not what most participants are implying, and the real question might be (correct me if I'm wrong--gently, please)...how should the government go about "helping" industries correct possible problems that could lead to illnesses while at the same time not taking away farmer/consumer choice?. And, yes, I still believe the "nanny" government has a role in studying these outbreaks and making recommendations to reduce future risks to the public (down to the very, very lowest level of sh** happens--the high plate counts and coliforms at Dairy A combined with another outbreak the following year suggest--but doesn't prove--to me that they were not at that level of "just a mistake, stop picking on us...").
Also, it is very tough to find common ground when one side at its extreme says “ban it” and the other extreme side says “increase access to [high risk] populations such as children.” Sorry, but the data available now, with all its limitations, shows the risks are greater than the benefits for children.
David--I agree this has been an unusual gathering of people with different backgrounds and unprecedented openess on your blog from farmers like Mark and Bob, patients (their parents), government folk, consumers, lawyers, and others. Not what goes on in the usual meetings about food safety, consumer choice, etc.
You know better than to ask that question :) No stone left unturned is a foreign concept in this age of budget cuts, lack of leadership...on the one hand research is bringing all these great technologies, but on the other hand circumstances in the public health system are moving things into the dark age.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/06/14/six-tribes-of-bacteria-live-in-your-inner-elbow.aspx?source=nl
Ken Conrad
It really depends on your 'data'....and where you are looking. If you are looking at the 'research machine'...scientific studies funded by industry you are sure to find unbiased findings =;-) Basing your opinion on 'peer review' limits you...just as logical reductionist thinking eventually paints one into a corner. It's better to go out the door and look in the window.
I have dozens of kids that drink my milk (one of them is my own). They are healthier because of it. Thousands of kids partake everyday, and just because no one is there marking it with a pencil, it doesn't count? Talk about scientific blinders. No C2 you are wrong here. The 'threat' you are fabricating is false....at least when you take into consideration the benefits vs the odds of sickness. You haven't a clue what us 'fringe, raw milk lunatics' are proving to ourselves everyday...and it flies in the face of your journals,and your government reports and your fear mongering.
Yes, it was sad that those kids got sick in CA. 6 right, out of what 60,000....600,000.... 6 million servings that day, week or month. The risk you speak of is a sham, fabricated to take away the right of access. If you knew the true breadth of the raw milk supply in this country you would realize how small the out breaks (if they are indeed not government fabrications) actually are. It's so funny you worrying that more people might actually get what is distinctly a cornerstone of a healthier diet then the one you and your ilk recommend. Amazing.... :shakinghead:
Access is the key. If raw milk can stand on it's own legs, and become more 'widely available' it'll only be if the State stops lying to it's people and let them get the stuff (legally without hassles).
As the conventional food supply becomes even more unstable (and unsafe, never mind more unhealthy)....us fanatics on the fringe will become more and more correct.
Dr. Mercola states:
So, what can you do to keep your body’s ecosystem thriving and, most importantly, in balance?
1. Avoid antibiotics if at all possible. Only take them as a last resort, and when absolutely necessary. If you do take antibiotics, be sure to take a high-quality probiotic supplement upon finishing the treatment to replenish your body’s good bacteria.
2. Avoid antibacterial soaps. They will cause the production of resistant bacterial strains and are toxic. Plain soap and water is all you need.
3. Eat a diet tailored to your nutritional type. This will give you the foods your body (and its bacteria) will thrive on.
4. Avoid sugar and grains, which feed bad bacteria.
5. Eat organic meat and dairy products, as conventional varieties can contain high levels of antibiotic residues.
6. Eat fermented foods like kefir, unpasteurized sauerkraut, or, my favorite, natto. These foods are naturally rich in good bacteria that will help to keep your gut bacteria in balance.
7. Take a high-quality probiotic supplement, particularly while you get your diet on the right track.
How can we get better statistics about the number of raw milk drinkers? I think that is key in this discussion. The government has no money (or motivation) to find these numbers. As you work toward changing minds (and policy)...sorry sounding authorative again...show us the data! This repeated 40,000 raw milk drinkers in California makes no sense looking at the actual quantity of milk sold in that state commercially (guess what, bet the number is higher--how much higher?).
We perpetually go in circles...I'll circle around again too and say you have only 1 obstacle to get government off your backs: food safety. So long as we are concerned, we will be a distraction. If we lose interest, the big dairies will follow our lead on this one (the reasons why I know this are another subject)--we back off, they back off, so long as you don't totally ruin the reputation of dairy products.
Darth and other scientists are starting to think that letting y'all go wild and sell raw dairy products as you please without regulation might be the next step (not that we could convince hard-headed regulators to give this approach a try). If we went to the light side and y'all could sell raw milk freely without regulation or oversight it would be an intersting and maybe definitive experiment. Things work out--public health goes away. Things don't work out...Bill Marler "cleans-up" on the mess.
On that note, I will try to stop the fear mongering.
C2
How the heck does one get off of the Dr. Mercola distribution list? I must have linked to it at one point (maybe through this blog), and now he sends emails almost every day that do not go into "spam" despite my best efforts. I unsubscribed, but it came back. Nothing against sharing ideas, but I have information overload and want those emails to go away...that's why I like this site: anonymous; it is encouraging that posters are behaving again so David can keep the option not to identify a specific email as a pre-requisite for visiting or posting (and subject us to spam email).
C2
I think more honest surveillance is needed - too often government agencies seem to be in bed with the industry they are supposed to be monitoring. I can't believe USDA inspectors never saw slaughter house workers zapping downer cows or playing "football" with chickens. There have also been numerous instances of irregularities, including insider trading, at the FDA
Secondly, treat investigations of contaminated products with an even hand. Raw milk has an undeserved reputation as a lunatic fringe product, which is unfortunately fostered by the dairy industry. Thus there are too many officials who jump to conclusions. The "roll your eyes and round up the usual suspects" really gets in the way of understanding emerging pathogens. C'mon - there were only five samples - FIVE! Why not examine every one? Where's the intellectual curiosity? Did someone have a hot date? I understand in this case that there was a larger outbreak occurring and things were frenetic, but I think in this case, raw milk may just have been a convenient scapegoat. It helps to keep an open mind just in case it's not what you are 99% sure it is.
Thirdly, be more vigilant and consistent in recalling a product. OP was shut down immediately. Contaminated peanut butter sat on shelves for years. The current Salmonella outbreak has been going on since April. I would think that the Saint Paul strain is unusual enough for those in charge to take notice more quickly, especially because since 1990 there has been a 70% chance that there will be a tomato recall during any given year.
More rapid and candid identification of an outbreak's source is necessary. Some industries appear to be shielded from public scrutiny by government officials. Right now we don't know where the Salmonella-tainted tomatoes come from even though each store-bought tomato has a PLU coded sticker. Likewise it took too long to nail down the source of the spinach e coli outbreak even though those bags had bar codes.
Meanwhile, the clean growers go broke via association. Is it simply coincidence that they are often small growers and the "dirty" party is a large corporation?
Better I should stop drinking the conspiracy Kool-Aid.
Thanks for keeping the lines of communication open and having an interest in opposing views. I think listening is perhaps the best thing the government (and citizenry) can do.
"Why not examine every one? Where's the intellectual curiosity?"
You should FOIA the scientist's emails to "management"...this system is so broke. I agree with just about everything in your post.
C2
40,000 drinkers, drinking a gallon a week would be over 2 million gallons…so even if it was OP milk (or colostrum which really confuses the issue) that caused sickness we still come up with 1 in half a million. Do you know what the odds of being struck by lightning in the US is? (it’s more than this). So by your logic we should all stay inside because the risk is to great for death or injury from lightning. Wanna discuss car accidents? …or playing the lottery?.
With so many out there looking to ban the stiff outright, or other seeking to coopt the raw stuff into the established delivery system (see Utah)…it would be highly unlikely that most raw milk providers will have the trust necessary to come out and ‘help’ the authorities. Frankly, few officials have actually earned the respect that they demand…especially when they flatulate the party ‘raw milk is dangerous’ lines. I wouldn’t hold your breath for the ‘data’. You should however try and get out and speak to raw milk drinkers. Listen to what they say. It’ll change your mind…clearly…if you expose yourself to it. I’m certain there is a farm selling the good stuff near you.
Done /ongoing (exchange on this blog).
"I’m certain there is a farm selling the good stuff near you."
Haven't found one in my area that I trust, sigh. I'm picky.
C2
The people who are drinking raw milk, for the most part, are committed. Like the kids who get to taste the 'real stuff'....they just can't ever go back and drink 'that yucky stuff from the store'. This indeed is the real fear that you should be 'creating'...and the notion that Big Dairy isn't scared manureless about the prospect of 'more widely available' unadulterated farm fresh milk is poopycock.
Raw milk is here to stay. Many will go to extreme lengths to procure it, and that's not going to change. Many farmers providing it are willing to suffer financial ruin and jail to do so. C2...your side is defeated already, and you don't even realize it. The Truth is out there, and the more people that become aware, the more the lies become obvious.
I wonder how many incident fabrications there have been over the years....just to give the state officials the opportunity to put their scare campaign out over the airwaves.
In your earlier comment on this post (comment #6) you actually propose what I think should be the government's role in food safety...ALL food safety, not just raw dairy.
"...and the real question might be (correct me if I'm wrong--gently, please)...how should the government go about "helping" industries correct possible problems...while at the same time not taking away farmer/consumer choice?...I still believe the "nanny" government has a role in studying these outbreaks and making recommendations to reduce future risks..."
Study and recommendations. That might also be termed education and communication, neither of which I would say is not in the purview of the dark side...
I'd even agree that SOME regulation is right. No producer should be allowed to lie to a consumer. I give every new customer a handout I prepared that gives BOTH sides of the issue of raw milk safety, including cites and links to FDA and CDC reports that I consider fear mongering, like the "Russian Roulette" comparison. I don't think all producers should have to go that far (that's just something I do...others may address the issue in a different manner), but neither do I believe that flat out lies should be permittable either. If a "newbie" to raw milk asks if raw dairy has ever made anyone sick the producer that answers "no" should be jailed. Exactly where in between these two examples honesty enforcement should land I can't honestly say.
But that's it. I see no constitutional way the state can tell people that their food choices must come from a nanny state approved list of foods. Education and information...yes. Forced "choice"...not in our constitution.
You should know by now that I am something of a "rights nut"...and it extends to more than raw dairy...that's just the main topic here. The first thing that should be asked of ANY government action is, "is this constitutional?" If the answer is no it should die right there, and denying citizens the right to make their own nutritional choices is not constitutional.
Bob Hayles
Thornberry Village Homestead
Jasper, GA
706.692.7004
Thornberry Village Homestead...a small goat dairy owned by God,managed by Bob.
After being immersed in the raw milk fight and subsiquent foodbourne illnes research over the past ten years as raw milk producer and consumer advocate..tied to the native american understandings I was also taught in that time frame , it appears to me that we are witnessing the regulation of unchecked growth in the area of animal co-habitation.
Scrappee, mad cow disease.salmonella, johnees, e-coli have all been with us for sometime.
It is only in time of stress and or over popoulation do these thing begin to show themselves as a tool to thin out the numbers to a sustainable level.
Native americans knew that staying in one spot for too long only invited disease, hence summer camps, winter camps, and longer movements and splitting of the camps to other areas in order to be sustainable.
If we look at our current food production system on the commercial scale we have created large population in a small place and disease has interviend to thin the numbers.
Yet we have been able for a while to offset the effect of the thinning by the use of antibiotics.
However the thinning aspects will mutate to continue the job and we only have so many options to hold off the end result.
In the mean time we are seeing the end of cheap fertilizer and the thinning effect(pathogens) has now been transported to the fields of our other food stuffs grown in monocultures void of diversity, and times own thinning aspect of reducing these pathogens(composting) and it has begun to effect us in unintentional ways.
Last few years meats & eggs have been effected, last year it was spinach..this year tomatoes..next year your guess is as good as mine.
We do however have a Food dafety industry modeled very much on the medical industry of treating the symptoms not the cause.
Until we begin to peal back the layers of the real reason these things are happening raw milk will be held up as the traditional reason we are to classify all foods as dangerous (for at one time it was yet no longer) and an two industries will continue their own unchecked growth.
The food safety industry will come up with new ways to render our food safe.. and commercial producers will consolidate more and more animals in smaller and smaller places..all the while ruining our produce with the waste created.
Tim
http://bmartinmd.com/2008/02/doj-us-importer-conspired-to-b.html
When I read stories link the one above, it just reinforces the lack of trust of industrial and govt entities.
I don't recall anyone stating that there should be NO regulation. Regulations are there to help keep people honest and safe. Unfortunately many are not from both sides of the spectrum. There should be basic guidelines that any entity is required to follow. They should all be fair and obtainable.
Of those who go above and beyond the "basics" I have no problem paying the extra that it may cost. Apparently others are of the same mind; the rbST added to cows has forced many to seek out dairy that does not have it added, and it appears to have upset the producer of rbST so muct that milk cartons have to be labeled that there is no difference. By forcing non-rbST dairies to state on the label there is no difference, only enforces who is running the "enforcers".
Food Safety? Safe food handling is an expected function of anyone that produces/sales/gives food to another.
"denying citizens the right to make their own nutritional choices is not constitutional."
This is true Bob. Bob, about the McDonald's coffee case. That coffee was at 185 degrees, which had she taken a swig of it, it would have been her mouth and throat severly burned. That particular McDonalds along with others had been court ordered to reduce the temperature as others had been burned, it was a safety issue. McDonalds declined to lower the temperature, thus further causing other injuries.