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Tuesday
12Aug2008

NY Hearing Officer to Smiths: “Raw Milk Is Raw Milk, Whether It Is Sold or Bartered or Given Away”


The notion that a hearing officer engaged by New York’s Department of Agriculture and Markets would recommend a ruling in favor of the agency, and against Barb and Steve Smith, is no big surprise. What is surprising is the logic the officer, Susan Weber, used in her 21-page report--just sent last week to the Smiths--which is based on two days of hearings held last January concerning charges against the Smiths and their Meadowsweet Dairy LLC. The Smiths established a limited liability company—really, a type of herdshare—and argued that the LLC placed them outside the tentacles of NY Ag & Markets. (For previous postings about Meadowsweet and the Smiths, use the search function.)

Even less of a surprise is that the Ag & Markets Commissioner, Patrick Hooker, accepted the hearing officer’s recommendations and ordered the Smiths to abide by state regulations, including obtaining a raw milk permit, if they want to make unpasteurized milk available to their shareholders. Of course, that would mean they couldn’t make other products like yogurt, cream, butter, and buttermilk available. Hooker actually went further than the hearing officer, ignoring even her two modest favorable conclusions for the Smiths-- that no raw-milk sales had occurred, and that the Smiths' milk hadn't violated coliform standards, since none exist  in NY for raw milk.

What’s interesting about Weber’s report is that it seems to be telling the Smiths: You may be doing everything correctly in using an LLC to distribute milk to shareholders, but it’s illegal all the same.

For example, to the argument by the Smiths' lawyer, Gary Cox (of the Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund) that New York’s milk laws don’t prohibit herdshare-type arrangements, hearing officer Weber states: “There is the definition of raw milk, which appears to require a sale; there is the consumer who must apparently purchase in order for the milk she or he drinks to be regulated under law; there is the milk plant which must apparently receive milk intended for pasteurization or not qualify as a milk plant. Respondents would have us hang our hats upon these inconsistencies, find them dispositive, and dismiss the State’s case. To do so would fly in the face of common sense and defeat the clear legislative intent to cover the field of dairy regulation for the protection of public health.”

Yes, “protection” over all.

Similarly, she states: “I conclude that the arrangement between its members and Meadowsweet for the distribution of raw milk and raw milk products is not a purchase and sale transaction, but is a distribution of profit based upon the value of the members’ contributions.”

But then she adds, “It is well established that the law cannot be employed for an illegal purpose…Consequently, while members may obtain raw milk and raw milk products at the farm as a distribution from the LLC, I find that the LLC must be in compliance with applicable laws governing manufacture, processing, handling, and distribution of dairy products.”

Shades of Catch-22?

Finally, she expresses concerns about sanitation violations discovered by Ag & Markets, including “the north wall is caked with old manure, chickens were found roaming free in the milking barn,” along with flies, mouse droppings, and spider webs observed. Even though she allows that “the Department offered no evidence that there was any actual injury to the public or any intent to deceive consumers by offering product which was not what it was purported to be,” the claim about unsanitary conditions “was the most compelling”to her.

To Weber, “The Department’s evidence establishes beyond doubt that the conditions at Meadowsweet in October of 2007 were not sanitary, that the products produced, processed and manufactured there may have been contaminated with filth or rendered diseased, unwholesome or injurious to health.”

Never mind that real farms have for ages had chickens intermingling with cows, and have had spider webs and mouse droppings around…or that no members of the LLC-herdshare have become ill, or even made a single complaint to any governmental authorities, after numerous visits to the dairy to pick up their milk.

It’s easy to dismiss this report as inherently biased and also point out that it isn’t yet enforceable because the Smiths have a court case pending against Ag & Markets in state court seeking exemption from Ag & Markets of the LLC-herdshare model.

But the fact is that a quasi-legal opinion has moved the nation's second-largest state a large step closer to rendering herdshares illegal. You can be sure the judge in the Smiths' case will read the hearing officer's report. This NY decision comes after a court in the largest state sided with the California Department of Agriculture a few months ago in refusing to suspend enforcement of the state’s 10-coliform-per-milliliter coliform standard.

In both cases, the voices of the judiciary were essentially saying: You raw-milk people may have logical arguments, but we mortal judge types don’t pretend to really understand this stuff, so we’re accepting everything the regulators tell us, whether it’s true or not, because...they're regulators and, doggon it, we trust them to protect our health. And you few who don’t trust them to protect your health, well, that’s your problem.

Reader Comments (35)

“The Department’s evidence establishes beyond doubt that the conditions at Meadowsweet in October of 2007 were not sanitary, that the products produced, processed and manufactured there may have been contaminated with filth or rendered diseased, unwholesome or injurious to health.”

"May have been contaminated"? You have got to be joking! Are they saying that with todays technology the govt entities are unable to tell if something is or is not contaminated? But then, they cannot find contamination on produce either.... What a bunch of BS.

http://www.news10.net/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=46284&catid=2

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/california-state-fair-feature-first/story.aspx?guid=%7BA6D30859-EBEC-4337-B80D-2E5F9CDDB4FF%7D&dist=hppr

I wonder what kind of testing was done to "ensure" the safety of breathing this poo?
August 13, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterSylvia
I think she forgot to mention the lions and tigers and bears in her report, oh my!

How would she propose that mice, flies, and spiders be 100% eliminated - the use of chemical poisons and sprays I guess. Yeah, that's safe.

I've been drinking between a pint and a quart of raw milk each day for just over 3 years now from Meadowsweet and have never gotten sick. As a matter of fact, I have not been sick for any reason since switching to raw milk.

For the record, I couldn't care less about old manure on the north wall.
August 13, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterCarol Peterson
This is all very similar to the Schmitmeyer's case in Ohio two/three years ago, in which the hearing officer agreed with the Department of Agriculture's arguments and revoked the farm's dairy license. Luckily Gary Cox's appeal to the county court overturned that decision, and herdshares are (for now) unregulated and legally permitted in Ohio. Unfortunately there are hints that the Department may try to introduce legislation or administrative rules calling for sanitary inspections and other regulations around herdshares. The minutes from the May meeting of the Milk Sanitation Board paraphrased Director Boggs as saying "the Governor wants the public to have access to raw milk through a herd share, but that doesn’t mean they are exempt from inspections and sanitary conditions." Hopefully this doesn't mean that our quiet times in Ohio may be ending!
August 13, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterDon Neeper
"How would she propose that mice, flies, and spiders be 100% eliminated"


Apparently, the factory dairies are not inspected, or they just "look the other way" as there is more than poop on any north walls. They go beyond unsanitary.
August 13, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterSylvia
sylvia,

here is an example of what we are up against. federal law on "adulteration" provides, in part, that food is adulterated if it "may be contaminated." most states adopt this federal regulation as well. consequently, if there are flies, mud or animals in the vicinity of where the food product is produced the regulators would consider that food product "adulterated" even though there may not be any evidence whatsoever that the flies, mud or animals came anywhere near the product. the deck is so stacked against us that it defies common sense. but in the end we will prevail. we are fighting the good fight.
August 13, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterGary Cox
Officer Weber needs to reread the book Charlotte's Web.
August 13, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterAnna
...as if it needs to be said, "adulterated" milk is that which is laced with growth hormones, deconstituted into marketable fractions and then reconstituted for sale to consumers for direct consumption, homogenized, and pasteurized.

I can only conclude that in the collective mind of our public health forces these adulterations cause no illness, so are insignificant as a public health matter. Yet in this hearing officer's eyes, NY Ag & Markets can void Meadowsweet's herdshare agreements because Meadowsweet's products (in truth, the products belonged to the herd's owners, not Meadowsweet) "may have been contaminated" (MAY have been!).

Guilty, because there might be, could be, an illness in the future. (I think if the hearing officer got a speeding ticket because her car is capable of exceeding the speed limit, there would be screaming.)

Many have suggested here and elsewhere that a base problem with our regulatory agencies is that they dictate process rather than test products. "This is the way you will do it," they say, "and this is what the outcome will be." If the regulators were sincerely interested in good quality products they would get their noses out of the processes and test the end products. Perhaps then such miracles as campylobacter being inactivated by a raw milk enzyme (as Ken Conrad noted earlier) might open some eyes.
August 13, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterDave Milano
I got the following email on Americans Against NAIS last night. I've encouraged the woman to come here and post her story, but being impatient (that I can be!) I thought I'd post the story and then see what she will fill in for us. She

Begin email:
[homedairygoats] Alert- Big Brother has henchmen in California

Hello All,
I rarely post here, but felt compelled to share today’s experience with you. I’ll start with a bit of background to bring you up to speed. I run a small (very small) Children’s Ag Program near Lake Berryessa, California. We currently have only 2 does in milk but share the pasteurized goat milk with family and friends. We have never sold raw or pasteurized milk or products in any form. I do teach children to milk, pasteurize, make cheeses, cajeta, ice cream, etc. but they are for their own personal consumption. I have also "given" milk to others to feed their goat kids, to make their own cheese etc. I even make cheese to share and give to friends and family and take to potlucks etc. (Gosh.. I must be a real criminal)
Today a state Ag inspector and two county officials show up and scare the bee-jesus out of me. First they accuse me of selling products and milk, then explain that even "giving milk products away" is illegal in California. Now everything is pasteurized, but it is illegal to share milk products in any form! They explained it was even ILLEGAL to give it to my own children if they did not live under my roof! I can’t even take a lasagna dish to my grown sons home without risk of being fined, arrested and or jailed! This is OUTRAGIOUS!!!! Now let me assure you that this did not come about because anyone got sick from our products in anyway.. nor have there ever been complaints about our products...
I understand the need to license dairies, but this is over the top! To meet the requirements for a food handlers permit, milk handlers permit, pasteurizer operators permit, a dairy license, and a commercial kitchen is undue punishment! This is ridiculous! Heck, someone want to explain this to me? This is a hobby for me and an opportunity to teach city kids about agriculture and real foods. How can it be illegal to give something away or take a casserole to a friend’s house?

End of email.
August 13, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterHenwhisperer
Friends,

Do we now understand the WAR that's going on that others have spoke of here?

Real foods are dangerous to the establishment. Government exists to perpetuate itself, and it perpetuates itself by placing more and more rules and regulations on us, justifying raising our taxes and enslaving us.

A Hearing Officer? She is not a judge, or would be called as such in this article. What authority does she have to interpret the law (or 'rule')?

Our founding fathers did not intend for one body to make, interpret and enforce rules/laws. That's the definition of tyranny.

Everyone here needs to stop thinking that they can reason with the regulators and legislators. They don't care. They want to CONTROL us (that's how government maintains its power)!

We need to understand the the USDA/FDA/etc. are illegal, unconstitutional bodies. The government in our country exists only because we consent to be governed by it. If we agree that NY Ag & Markets has the power to regulate farmers, then they will. Just like they're doing now.

We can tell them to shove off if we want. But of course in doing so, we have a tremendous amount of personal responsibility to shoulder - the responsibility to take charge of our own lives and live with the consequences of our decisions, good and bad.

Are we ready for that? It's the only way to take back our rights, as far as I can see.

Gary, because this concerns an LLC (and disregards the contract between the LLC and its members), can you get some business law types involved in this case? Does it set precident in business law?
August 13, 2008 | Unregistered Commentercheryl
So if I own a cow, whole or in part, Are ya'll saying I cannot pay someone to milk it for me and then consume it? Am I reading this correctly?
August 13, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterSylvia
I grant that this development is disheartening, but when I read your posts, it always raises my spirits and my courage. Get out there and educate consumers!

They will be our key leverage. Once they go raw, they can't go back, and they'll fight to get it.

I come to this blog for refuge, knowledge, and enlightenment, but I know that we're just preaching to the choir here. Go to farmer's markets, locavore groups, etc and sign them up!
Build critical mass NOW.
-Blair
August 13, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterMary Blair McMorran
Very well said Cheryl. Few really understand the voluntary slavery we are laboring under, the government schools we all attended did not teach us courage or self reliance but filled us with silly nonsense and slanted historical lies. How many of us know the difference between a republic and a democracy and which are we? How many of our politicos or regulators have read The Constitution and the Bill of Rights recently or ever? The lawmakers only solution to any problem is to hold hearings and pass more laws. Someone has said we now have over 2.5 million laws that we are subject to.

"The more corrupt the state the more numerous the laws" TACITUS 56-120AD
August 14, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterDon
A Republic is a representative government ruled by law (our Constitution- at least this is what was ingrained in my head growing up). A democracy is direct government ruled by the majority (mob rule). A Republic recognizes the inalienable rights of individuals while democracies are only concerned with group wants or needs (the public good).

Doesn't the Pledge state "a Republic for which it stands"? Is democracy mentioned in the Constitution? It appears that our "leaders" are and have been running a "democracy" for years. When did it change?

Madison's words;

"Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths..."
August 14, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterSylvia
Sylvia Some say that most of our trouble began with the civil war. Yes the black slaves were freed but we all became enslaved thru the financial system, we now only hold "title" to our land, our homes belong to the state. We cant even own a dog without state permission "license". We need permission [license] to fish, to hunt, drive a car, cut hair, sell goods or services and the list is never ending. Perhaps the worst is you could be destroyed and go to jailed for selling a gallon of real milk without their permission, not to mention the illegality of selling butter and cream.
Its to bad we didnot heed Thomas Jefferson warning to the affect that if we allow private banks to control the money we will end up homeless and pennyless. This is happening now.
Which one of out present day dire problems does not have some connection to our phoney fiat paper money system?
August 14, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterDon
Apparently this hearing officer is unaware that manure is the proper fertilizer for crops! It is no more inherently dangerous than raw milk is. I would worry more about a farm free of manure, cuz that would mean petrochemical fertilizers are being used.

On the other hand, maybe using this hearing officer to investigate CAFO's, we could end factory farming and feedlots for good. She would be horrified at their manure lagoons! She might come in handy!

Kimberly
August 14, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterKimberly Hartke
the vast majority of americans are so consumed with being consumers that they are totally disconected with the reality of what it means to live "a good life". what we leave for the next generation seems to matter little. most shed responsibility for their mistakes onto the "system" few can see (or come to grips with) where we're all being led by our self destructive short sighted actions to have it all and have it easy.

i personally don't see america surviving on its current path very much longer. something will happen and the "american" way of life will collapse. 10's of millions will starve, 10's of millions more will die that first winter. if the nation survives this i'll be surprised, but either way what emerges from the chaos will be very different. i just hope it happens after i'm gone as i don't want to be forced to defend my family by killing deranged starving marauders looking to take what i have.

if this sounds over the top. well, maybe it is. but looking at the people in cities near me has become a scarry and depressing pass-time anymore. i have lost all respect for most "americans" and for our government. in fact i can muster nothing but contempt for government anymore.

what ever good fight the few who frequent or lurk on blogs like this might muster it's a speck on the wall of the millions upon millions of americans who keep their blinders on and remain completely clueless.

overall i think america has gone too far down this road to ever correct our collective course toward social collapse. maybe it would just be better to get it over with.

hugh
August 14, 2008 | Unregistered Commenterhugh betcha
hugh,

are you an infowarrior?

www.infowars.com
August 14, 2008 | Unregistered Commentercheryl
Hugh,

I completely agree you that America is on the wrong track. However, this country was built on a strong christian foundation, (even if historians don't admit it, that's the way it is) and I believe that sets us apart from most of the rest of the world.

Like Ron Paul has said, when the former Soviet Union colapsed they struggled to say the least, because they didn't have the Godly foundation to draw strength from that we have. What we need to do is take our breath and get back to our heritage.


Jeremy
August 14, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterJeremy
I am looking at retirement in the next 4-5 yrs. My remaining goal is to pay cash for a place and dig in the dirt and watch the seeds grow. Have some chickens and whatever else strikes my fancy. Dogs? Yup, I want a few. License them? We'll see. Don't burst my bubble about only holding "title" to my land...I'll face that reality when I absolutely have to. I don't owe anyone anything at this point.

Wasn't it Roosevelt who pushed the fiat paper money system? I digress. It is never just one issue that brings us to where we are today.

Before mom passed away 2 yrs ago, she said things were looking simular to right before the crash of '29 only this time it would be worse.

Is it Chicken Little and the sky is falling? I don't know. I am trying to look out for my family. Trust the govt? Not in this life time.

Hugh, Sometimes people have to be knocked silly before they open their eyes and/or remove the blinders. Some have to learn those things the hard way. No one can teach them. It is sad.Some never learn. (I do admit to being just a tad hard headed too).

Why did the United States have a prohibition movement, and enact prohibition? In a nutshell: people tried to push their beliefs onto others. http://prohibition.osu.edu/brewing/consumption.cfm
Other than 1934, drinking has been fairly stable. Prohibition didn't work, neither will trying to force people against their will.

Some times, you have to hit bottom before you can raise from the ashes.
August 14, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterSylvia
Shaking my head with all the good, but perhaps misdirected comments. For example,

"Trust the govt? Not in this life time."

"I come to this blog for refuge, knowledge, and enlightenment, but I know that we're just preaching to the choir here."

"Finally, she expresses concerns about sanitation violations discovered by... including “the north wall is caked with old manure, chickens were found roaming free in the milking barn,” along with flies, mouse droppings, and spider webs observed."

In lurking (and sometimes particpating) in discussions, some things have been learned including the passion for "food rights" and logical arguments about raw milk being different than pasteurized ("dead") milk, It has been informative to observe these discussions go in circles - raw milk is different, therefore safer; raw milk has risks, but we take extra precautions (except flies and caked manure); raw milk isn't different and the whole food safety argument is a sham - let there be pathogens and feces in the milk - god's immunity will take care of it.

There is a window for communication, but this "refuge" for a person hovering between the "light and dark side," simply reminds me lately of those high rise hotel rooms where government workers go to do whatever it is they do - sealed windows, bad air conditioning, cold meeting rooms...places where nothing is really accomplished.

Burrr.
August 14, 2008 | Unregistered CommenterC2
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