The notion that a hearing officer engaged by New Yorks Department of Agriculture and Markets would recommend a ruling in favor of the agency, and against Barb and Steve Smith, is no big surprise. What is surprising is the logic the officer, Susan Weber, used in her 21-page report–just sent last week to the Smiths–which is based on two days of hearings held last January concerning charges against the Smiths and their Meadowsweet Dairy LLC. The Smiths established a limited liability companyreally, a type of herdshareand argued that the LLC placed them outside the tentacles of NY Ag & Markets. (For previous postings about Meadowsweet and the Smiths, use the search function.)
Even less of a surprise is that the Ag & Markets Commissioner, Patrick Hooker, accepted the hearing officers recommendations and ordered the Smiths to abide by state regulations, including obtaining a raw milk permit, if they want to make unpasteurized milk available to their shareholders. Of course, that would mean they couldnt make other products like yogurt, cream, butter, and buttermilk available. Hooker actually went further than the hearing officer, ignoring even her two modest favorable conclusions for the Smiths– that no raw-milk sales had occurred, and that the Smiths’ milk hadn’t violated coliform standards, since none exist in NY for raw milk.
Whats interesting about Webers report is that it seems to be telling the Smiths: You may be doing everything correctly in using an LLC to distribute milk to shareholders, but its illegal all the same.
For example, to the argument by the Smiths’ lawyer, Gary Cox (of the Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund) that New Yorks milk laws dont prohibit herdshare-type arrangements, hearing officer Weber states: There is the definition of raw milk, which appears to require a sale; there is the consumer who must apparently purchase in order for the milk she or he drinks to be regulated under law; there is the milk plant which must apparently receive milk intended for pasteurization or not qualify as a milk plant. Respondents would have us hang our hats upon these inconsistencies, find them dispositive, and dismiss the States case. To do so would fly in the face of common sense and defeat the clear legislative intent to cover the field of dairy regulation for the protection of public health.
Yes, protection over all.
Similarly, she states: I conclude that the arrangement between its members and Meadowsweet for the distribution of raw milk and raw milk products is not a purchase and sale transaction, but is a distribution of profit based upon the value of the members contributions.
But then she adds, It is well established that the law cannot be employed for an illegal purposeConsequently, while members may obtain raw milk and raw milk products at the farm as a distribution from the LLC, I find that the LLC must be in compliance with applicable laws governing manufacture, processing, handling, and distribution of dairy products.
Shades of Catch-22?
Finally, she expresses concerns about sanitation violations discovered by Ag & Markets, including the north wall is caked with old manure, chickens were found roaming free in the milking barn, along with flies, mouse droppings, and spider webs observed. Even though she allows that the Department offered no evidence that there was any actual injury to the public or any intent to deceive consumers by offering product which was not what it was purported to be, the claim about unsanitary conditions was the most compellingto her.
To Weber, The Departments evidence establishes beyond doubt that the conditions at Meadowsweet in October of 2007 were not sanitary, that the products produced, processed and manufactured there may have been contaminated with filth or rendered diseased, unwholesome or injurious to health.
Never mind that real farms have for ages had chickens intermingling with cows, and have had spider webs and mouse droppings aroundor that no members of the LLC-herdshare have become ill, or even made a single complaint to any governmental authorities, after numerous visits to the dairy to pick up their milk.
Its easy to dismiss this report as inherently biased and also point out that it isnt yet enforceable because the Smiths have a court case pending against Ag & Markets in state court seeking exemption from Ag & Markets of the LLC-herdshare model.
But the fact is that a quasi-legal opinion has moved the nation’s second-largest state a large step closer to rendering herdshares illegal. You can be sure the judge in the Smiths’ case will read the hearing officer’s report. This NY decision comes after a court in the largest state sided with the California Department of Agriculture a few months ago in refusing to suspend enforcement of the states 10-coliform-per-milliliter coliform standard.
In both cases, the voices of the judiciary were essentially saying: You raw-milk people may have logical arguments, but we mortal judge types dont pretend to really understand this stuff, so were accepting everything the regulators tell us, whether its true or not, because…they’re regulators and, doggon it, we trust them to protect our health. And you few who dont trust them to protect your health, well, thats your problem.
"May have been contaminated"? You have got to be joking! Are they saying that with todays technology the govt entities are unable to tell if something is or is not contaminated? But then, they cannot find contamination on produce either…. What a bunch of BS.
http://www.news10.net/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=46284&catid=2
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/california-state-fair-feature-first/story.aspx?guid=%7BA6D30859-EBEC-4337-B80D-2E5F9CDDB4FF%7D&dist=hppr
I wonder what kind of testing was done to "ensure" the safety of breathing this poo?
How would she propose that mice, flies, and spiders be 100% eliminated – the use of chemical poisons and sprays I guess. Yeah, that’s safe.
I’ve been drinking between a pint and a quart of raw milk each day for just over 3 years now from Meadowsweet and have never gotten sick. As a matter of fact, I have not been sick for any reason since switching to raw milk.
For the record, I couldn’t care less about old manure on the north wall.
Apparently, the factory dairies are not inspected, or they just "look the other way" as there is more than poop on any north walls. They go beyond unsanitary.
here is an example of what we are up against. federal law on "adulteration" provides, in part, that food is adulterated if it "may be contaminated." most states adopt this federal regulation as well. consequently, if there are flies, mud or animals in the vicinity of where the food product is produced the regulators would consider that food product "adulterated" even though there may not be any evidence whatsoever that the flies, mud or animals came anywhere near the product. the deck is so stacked against us that it defies common sense. but in the end we will prevail. we are fighting the good fight.
I can only conclude that in the collective mind of our public health forces these adulterations cause no illness, so are insignificant as a public health matter. Yet in this hearing officer’s eyes, NY Ag & Markets can void Meadowsweet’s herdshare agreements because Meadowsweet’s products (in truth, the products belonged to the herd’s owners, not Meadowsweet) "may have been contaminated" (MAY have been!).
Guilty, because there might be, could be, an illness in the future. (I think if the hearing officer got a speeding ticket because her car is capable of exceeding the speed limit, there would be screaming.)
Many have suggested here and elsewhere that a base problem with our regulatory agencies is that they dictate process rather than test products. "This is the way you will do it," they say, "and this is what the outcome will be." If the regulators were sincerely interested in good quality products they would get their noses out of the processes and test the end products. Perhaps then such miracles as campylobacter being inactivated by a raw milk enzyme (as Ken Conrad noted earlier) might open some eyes.
Begin email:
[homedairygoats] Alert- Big Brother has henchmen in California
Hello All,
I rarely post here, but felt compelled to share todays experience with you. Ill start with a bit of background to bring you up to speed. I run a small (very small) Childrens Ag Program near Lake Berryessa, California. We currently have only 2 does in milk but share the pasteurized goat milk with family and friends. We have never sold raw or pasteurized milk or products in any form. I do teach children to milk, pasteurize, make cheeses, cajeta, ice cream, etc. but they are for their own personal consumption. I have also "given" milk to others to feed their goat kids, to make their own cheese etc. I even make cheese to share and give to friends and family and take to potlucks etc. (Gosh.. I must be a real criminal)
Today a state Ag inspector and two county officials show up and scare the bee-jesus out of me. First they accuse me of selling products and milk, then explain that even "giving milk products away" is illegal in California. Now everything is pasteurized, but it is illegal to share milk products in any form! They explained it was even ILLEGAL to give it to my own children if they did not live under my roof! I cant even take a lasagna dish to my grown sons home without risk of being fined, arrested and or jailed! This is OUTRAGIOUS!!!! Now let me assure you that this did not come about because anyone got sick from our products in anyway.. nor have there ever been complaints about our products…
I understand the need to license dairies, but this is over the top! To meet the requirements for a food handlers permit, milk handlers permit, pasteurizer operators permit, a dairy license, and a commercial kitchen is undue punishment! This is ridiculous! Heck, someone want to explain this to me? This is a hobby for me and an opportunity to teach city kids about agriculture and real foods. How can it be illegal to give something away or take a casserole to a friends house?
End of email.
Do we now understand the WAR that’s going on that others have spoke of here?
Real foods are dangerous to the establishment. Government exists to perpetuate itself, and it perpetuates itself by placing more and more rules and regulations on us, justifying raising our taxes and enslaving us.
A Hearing Officer? She is not a judge, or would be called as such in this article. What authority does she have to interpret the law (or ‘rule’)?
Our founding fathers did not intend for one body to make, interpret and enforce rules/laws. That’s the definition of tyranny.
Everyone here needs to stop thinking that they can reason with the regulators and legislators. They don’t care. They want to CONTROL us (that’s how government maintains its power)!
We need to understand the the USDA/FDA/etc. are illegal, unconstitutional bodies. The government in our country exists only because we consent to be governed by it. If we agree that NY Ag & Markets has the power to regulate farmers, then they will. Just like they’re doing now.
We can tell them to shove off if we want. But of course in doing so, we have a tremendous amount of personal responsibility to shoulder – the responsibility to take charge of our own lives and live with the consequences of our decisions, good and bad.
Are we ready for that? It’s the only way to take back our rights, as far as I can see.
Gary, because this concerns an LLC (and disregards the contract between the LLC and its members), can you get some business law types involved in this case? Does it set precident in business law?
They will be our key leverage. Once they go raw, they can’t go back, and they’ll fight to get it.
I come to this blog for refuge, knowledge, and enlightenment, but I know that we’re just preaching to the choir here. Go to farmer’s markets, locavore groups, etc and sign them up!
Build critical mass NOW.
-Blair
"The more corrupt the state the more numerous the laws" TACITUS 56-120AD
Doesn’t the Pledge state "a Republic for which it stands"? Is democracy mentioned in the Constitution? It appears that our "leaders" are and have been running a "democracy" for years. When did it change?
Madison’s words;
"Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths…"
Its to bad we didnot heed Thomas Jefferson warning to the affect that if we allow private banks to control the money we will end up homeless and pennyless. This is happening now.
Which one of out present day dire problems does not have some connection to our phoney fiat paper money system?
On the other hand, maybe using this hearing officer to investigate CAFO’s, we could end factory farming and feedlots for good. She would be horrified at their manure lagoons! She might come in handy!
Kimberly
i personally don’t see america surviving on its current path very much longer. something will happen and the "american" way of life will collapse. 10’s of millions will starve, 10’s of millions more will die that first winter. if the nation survives this i’ll be surprised, but either way what emerges from the chaos will be very different. i just hope it happens after i’m gone as i don’t want to be forced to defend my family by killing deranged starving marauders looking to take what i have.
if this sounds over the top. well, maybe it is. but looking at the people in cities near me has become a scarry and depressing pass-time anymore. i have lost all respect for most "americans" and for our government. in fact i can muster nothing but contempt for government anymore.
what ever good fight the few who frequent or lurk on blogs like this might muster it’s a speck on the wall of the millions upon millions of americans who keep their blinders on and remain completely clueless.
overall i think america has gone too far down this road to ever correct our collective course toward social collapse. maybe it would just be better to get it over with.
hugh
are you an infowarrior?
http://www.infowars.com
I completely agree you that America is on the wrong track. However, this country was built on a strong christian foundation, (even if historians don’t admit it, that’s the way it is) and I believe that sets us apart from most of the rest of the world.
Like Ron Paul has said, when the former Soviet Union colapsed they struggled to say the least, because they didn’t have the Godly foundation to draw strength from that we have. What we need to do is take our breath and get back to our heritage.
Jeremy
Wasn’t it Roosevelt who pushed the fiat paper money system? I digress. It is never just one issue that brings us to where we are today.
Before mom passed away 2 yrs ago, she said things were looking simular to right before the crash of ’29 only this time it would be worse.
Is it Chicken Little and the sky is falling? I don’t know. I am trying to look out for my family. Trust the govt? Not in this life time.
Hugh, Sometimes people have to be knocked silly before they open their eyes and/or remove the blinders. Some have to learn those things the hard way. No one can teach them. It is sad.Some never learn. (I do admit to being just a tad hard headed too).
Why did the United States have a prohibition movement, and enact prohibition? In a nutshell: people tried to push their beliefs onto others. http://prohibition.osu.edu/brewing/consumption.cfm
Other than 1934, drinking has been fairly stable. Prohibition didn’t work, neither will trying to force people against their will.
Some times, you have to hit bottom before you can raise from the ashes.
"Trust the govt? Not in this life time."
"I come to this blog for refuge, knowledge, and enlightenment, but I know that we’re just preaching to the choir here."
"Finally, she expresses concerns about sanitation violations discovered by… including the north wall is caked with old manure, chickens were found roaming free in the milking barn, along with flies, mouse droppings, and spider webs observed."
In lurking (and sometimes particpating) in discussions, some things have been learned including the passion for "food rights" and logical arguments about raw milk being different than pasteurized ("dead") milk, It has been informative to observe these discussions go in circles – raw milk is different, therefore safer; raw milk has risks, but we take extra precautions (except flies and caked manure); raw milk isn’t different and the whole food safety argument is a sham – let there be pathogens and feces in the milk – god’s immunity will take care of it.
There is a window for communication, but this "refuge" for a person hovering between the "light and dark side," simply reminds me lately of those high rise hotel rooms where government workers go to do whatever it is they do – sealed windows, bad air conditioning, cold meeting rooms…places where nothing is really accomplished.
Burrr.
There have been a lot of survivalist type posts in many discussion boards lately. I don’t think it is going to happen that way. A market or two might fall through and correct itself, but armageddon isn’t here yet. People are too smart and too adaptable.
As for manure, I never knew a barn without it. The human race evolved on animals raised in manury barns. What is going to happen is that when the neat-freaks start raising their own milk to survive, they are going to have to live with manure, and then the problem will go away all by itself. The neat-freak problem, I mean. Either they will starve and die, or they will get over it.
Gwen
Amanda
The government created Prohibition because, at that time, the people – we rural folks – were making OUR OWN FUEL in the same vessels as we were making our liquor, in stills. At the time of Prohibition, oil accounted for only 25% of our fuel consumption, ethanol (homegrown by farmers in those stills!) accounted for the other 75%. The oil companies (and the big money power families that owned them) swiftly got rid of any fuel competition by having their cronies in Congress pass Prohibition. By outlawing alcohol, and the stills that made it, they also effectively outlawed HOMEGROWN ETHANOL.
So, was Prohibition really about getting our nation to stop drinking? Or was it a push by the oil companies to outlaw the competition?
And Gwen,
Yes, there is a lot of doom and gloom on blogs and discussion groups right now. Did you go to http://www.infowars.com and read the headlines? Please, please, listen to Alex Jones’ radio show (on infowars.com) before you think we’re overreacting. We’re very, very near World War III because Georgia, with the backing of the US and Israel, provoked a war with Russia, who has now threatened to retaliate with nuclear weapons, 20,000 of which are pointed at the US. The government has admitted that torturing 2 year olds by using pliers on their genitals is acceptable (to get the parents to talk), that they put cancer viruses in vaccines, and that AIDS is a man-made eugenics experiment.
The economy isn’t going to correct itself until it totally collapses and we take it back from the Federal Reserve. The economy is MANIPULATED by the Federal Reserve. It floats or crashes because of their actions, not ours.
Makes the whole issue about ‘is raw milk safe or not’ really, really silly, doesn’t it?
Government loves us!
Sorry, but I can’t even begin to take seriously anyone who is hawking Jerome Corsi books!
edge
Using Corsi to disregard the entire website is a convenient sidestep, no?
Did you bother to read the headlines?
Don’t you have any intelligent thoughts on the other matters I brought up, or on the politics and policies regarding raw milk?
If you don’t take government tyranny seriously, than what do you take seriously? Your ipod and cell phone and cool car?
Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
Misdirected comments? Are you saying they are wrong? Are they misdirected because you are not in agreement? Or perhaps they are not your beliefs?
I would like to see the the north wall is caked with old manure to form my own opinion. Id like to see the feds idea of caked in this instance. Chickens in a barn? Duh it is a farm. Were they flying over while milking was being done? How about if the factory dairies are used for comparison, Id bet the farm they dont come anywhere near as clean as those milking goats and milking areas.
Raw milk is different than processed pasteurized milk. Pasteurized milk has been boiled, most or all of anything living is rendered dead, in the processing fats are taken out, replaced, man made chemicals added. (see above definition). This is not natural and not healthy. Some people are ok with this, others are not. I am not ok with this. I would also bet that the majority of the population doesnt realize the extent of adulteration to most of our food chain.
Raw milk and safety? I doubt that anyone would disagree that for all food production there are guidelines for safe handling. Contamination can happen with anything. Again education for everyone is needed to keep outbreaks/contamination to a minimum.
Trust? That is earned, from an adult stand-point: only fools trust blindly.
sodium lauryl sulfate; is added to many products, shampoos, toothpaste, cleaning agents, cosmetics, soaps, etc. It is may be used in combination with cocamidopropyl betaine (cocabetaine) and diethanolalamine (DEA). It is a wetting and dispersing agent, emulsifier, degreaser and foamer. It also increases skin permeability. The govt allows these and many other pollutants to be forced on the public. I say forced because most do not realize what the potential prolonged toxic exposure does to the human body and these chemicals are in products consumers buy and use. I didnt save the link I was reading last night, it is a study showing that use of sodium lauryl sulfate causes skin cancer/tumors. Skin cancer is on the raise and I doubt it is from the sun.
http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Sodium_lauryl_sulfate-9925002
http://www.scorecard.org/chemical-profiles/summary.tcl?edf_substance_id=111-42-2
http://www.scorecard.org/chemical-profiles/summary.tcl?edf_substance_id=151%2d21%2d3
As for Gods immunityI dont interfere with someones beliefs.
The govts food safety is a huge sham.
It is too bad that you are correlating this board with but this "refuge" for a person hovering between the "light and dark side," You minimize our beliefs and are derogatory towards that which is not what you believe.
What makes you think that nothing is accomplished? Word of mouth works wonders, this medium of the computer allows us in many areas of the country/world to communicate. For example, I read foreign media that Georgia had invaded break-away South Ossetia before Russia invaded. Why doesnt our govt/media report that? Hmmm Oil? Georgia has been hitting South Ossetia for years raping, pillaging atrocities. South Ossetia has long declared independence from Georgia. Selective reporting?
where government workers go to do whatever it is they do – sealed windows, bad air conditioning, cold meeting rooms…places where nothing is really accomplished.
Yes indeed, our tax money continues being wasted.
Cheryl, thank you for that insight, I had not heard that before.
Your use of the term "selling" suggests you don’t fully appreciate NY situation. The Smiths weren’t selling product, only making it available to the 100-plus investors in their LLC. The public can’t purchase this output. Those investors regularly visit the farm and see the conditions, and have obviously decided that the situation is likely much like your chicken coops–in other words, they "embrace some level of cleanliness" as you do. I don’t think you’d like the CA regulators coming to your farm and prohibiting you from giving your kids your chicken’s eggs any more than the Meadowsweet LLC owners like the idea of the NY regulators prohibiting the owners from having access to their yogurt, butter, and cream. And the idea of CDFA coming to your farm isn’t all that far-fetched–just read about the Napa ranch in my most recent post.
Awfully presumptuous of you! I am deeply sorry to inform you that I have never owned an iPod (still using the old stereo), or a cellphone (OK, I have occassionally borrowed my partner’s – a no frills model although I still don’t know how to do anything on it other than dial numbers). I do however finally own the first car I’ve ever owned that’s not a clunker, but I’m not sure that qualifies as "cool".
No TV either for that matter. We do however own a computer which I spend much more time on than I would like to. And while the internet is great in that it is full of information at the click of a button, it is also full of a lot of misinformation, sketchy information, and dubious information. I for one, have only a limited amount of time I can spend reading, sorting, and processing the chaff from the grain.
Occassionally, I get lucky and find great blogs or websites that are interesting, informative, and take care to make sure their content is accurate.
A website that prominently displays and sells books by an author who is known for his smear campaigns, rhetorical flips & leaps, blatantly false statements, and lousy documentation is so unlikely to limit itself to articles that meet my standards of journalistic integrity that regardless of whether or not I agree with some or even all of the headlines, I am not going to waste my precious time reading the articles to find out.
Do you really feel like you can trust an article vetted by someone who finds Corsi’s research acceptable? And do you really feel like you could have a worthwhile intelligent conversation on government tyranny with someone who – as soon you question the accuracy of their sources – immediately accuses you of sidestepping the conversation, and owning an iPod, cell phone, and cool car to boot?
edge
Often enough people post to this blog, having never done so before, using a fake name ("edge"), making snarky, short, nonrelevent comments about something said on this forum. Forgive my distrust of you, but I’ve seen your kind before.
You gave us quite a description of your life, but still haven’t made any comments regarding raw milk, the politics and policies thereof, or government tyranny in regards to our inalienable rights.
If you didn’t even bother to read the headlines before dissing the website, how do you know that the owner agrees with everything Corsi says? The host has very blatantly said that he disagrees with much of what Corsi says, but dang that Alex Jones, he does have guests on that he disagrees with.
Corsi is but one teeny, tiny guest on his whole show. I’m sorry you closed your mind at his very name. You’re missing out on one great website and radio show.
Amanda
Dear Cheryl,
For your information,
#1 "edge" is probably as much my main moniker as "Cheryl" is yours. True, it’s a little less conventional than your name and it’s not what my mother calls me, but it’s pretty much what I go by in this life. And, no I didn’t include a last name but neither did you which makes you just as anonymous on this website as I am.
#2 I happened to read ALL of the headlines (several of the articles I’ve read before on other sites) before I noticed the Corsi stuff on the side.
#3 Corsi is not just "a guest", he is prominently displayed and his books are being plugged!
#4 First, knowing absolutely nothing about me you call me a ipod-wearing, cellphone addicted, cool car driving bum. Now, knowing a little about me you call me a snarky, short, nonrelevant bum. And all sorts of other incorrect assumptions on top of that. Yet you seem puzzled that I am unwilling to disclose more information or engage in meaningful conversation with you on politics…I mean, it might be curious to see if you’d eventually realize we actually have things in common and apologize or if you’d just contine to find reasons to insult me, but I guess I’m just not THAT curious!
edge