There seem to be two complaints in the comments on my previous couple posts. The first has to do with the white-on-black typeface. I hear your pain, and I have changed to this format that features old-fashioned black-on-white. This design was originally my second choice in terms of appearance, but the reading problem has made it number one. Hopefully, it will stick.
The second complaint is more challenging, and that concerns whether I was unfair to the Martin family with respect to their video of Chris on YouTube, and somehow called into question the honesty of the Martins and their lawyer, Bill Marler when I said the editing was sloppy in handling the dates. I have gone back and reviewed a number of items and realize now that I was mistaken. The dates on the video are accurate, and I apologize to the Martins and Bill Marler for suggesting otherwise.
But in reviewing all various materials, I have come to realize that the video is perhaps more misleading than I originally thought, beginning with the title, HUS from raw milk, Chris Martin.
I was hampered in my review because none of the principals in this situation will speak with me. Mary McGonigle-Martin has, since Marler filed a court suit early this year against Mark McAfee, refused to discuss events publicly, and she did so again in the last few days when I tried to engage her. Her lawyer, Marler, has decided to refrain from saying more since his comments of a few days ago. When I went back to him late yesterday with a request that he follow up on a commitment he made to send me a summary of Chris Martins medical records, so I could check the dates, he wrote back, You can get all if this from Mark. I will let this all play out through the legal system.
Anyway, Mark has similarly refused to discuss the Martin situation with me, for the same reasons as Marytheres a court case pending. Thats common practice in such situations. No one in such cases wants to risk poisoning the juror pool, and in the process offending a judge, by saying something or doing something controversial.
All of which makes the simple act of posting the video August 21 all the more puzzling. But anyway, I decided to begin by going back to the journal Mary originally sent me in early 2007 (previously published in fuller form on this blog), from the days of Chris illness in late 2006. And heres what she stated during the dates in question:
9/16 It was now 2:00 a.m. The ventilator was managing Chriss every breath
9/20 Chris would spend nearly five full days on the ventilator Over these five days we had extensive discussions with (the nephrologist) about our sons condition upon arrival. He was dismayed to say the least. He told us that all of the respiratory issues our son was experiencing could have been avoided had Chris arrived at Loma Linda on Mondaynot Thursday. He could have avoided having to be intibated due to the risk of congestive heart failureHe stated that Chris would have received dialysis immediatelyFrom this point forward, days turned into weeks. Chris was taken off the ventilator after five days. He could not speak, throat swollen, more drugs administered to reduce the swelling. He had to wear a tightly fitted mask (By-Pap) over his mouth and nose, forcing oxygen deep into his lungs, due to a partially collapsed lung. Again, this need not have happened. More unnecessary pain and suffering
The next entry isn’t until 9/29, when she reports he had a seizure from high blood pressure, and then the next one, 10/1, says, “He was taken off the ventilator at 11:45 p.m.”
Three things stand out to me from this:
First, there are questions about whether the need for the respirator was necessitated by the illness or because of previous inappropriate treatment Chris received.
Second, Chris seems to have come off the respirator Sept. 21 (five days after the Sept. 16 entry), but still required a mask. Mary didnt explain whether he wore the mask full-time or not (and I couldnt ask her or Marler), but two people who commented on my previous two posts, who say they have medical expertise, seemed to suggest he didnt need it full time.
According to cp, The video portrays the progression of Chris Martin regaining the function of his lungs.
Gwen (Henwhisperer), provides more detail:
It isn’t unusual for such masks to be on only when a patient is sleeping. When he was awake, particularly to eat, he would have had a nasal cannula on for oxygen rather than a bipap or mask; or nothing to assist his breathing at all if his oxygen level held out while he was awake and alert. And he would have been sitting up or moving around. It is entirely possible he could have been talking on his cell phone on the 23rd and 24th, or the same days these last 2 clips were taken. There are no clips on the 21st or 22nd, so it may have even been possible then. There is no NG tube in the last 2 clips, so I am going to assume that the child could have been eating food by then, and so was at times awake and without a mask. Just because he is asleep and breathing noisily doesn’t mean he was not awake and breathing quietly at other times of those days, or able to talk on a cell phone.
Based on those observations, I agree with Henwhisperers conclusion:
If the case is that the clips were merely taken during sleep moments, and the child also had waking moments without masks on those days, the video is misleading, and making the most of dramatizing the case.
It seems to me that when Mark McAfee visitedwhether on Sept. 23, 24, or 25perhaps Chris wasnt wearing his mask. Maybe he was speaking on a telephone (cell phone or portable phone). Maybe he was listening to music through a headset.
Third, my particular error in all this was in not re-reviewing the video I acquired many months ago (and looked at then), which is a longer version of the YouTube video. I couldnt get my VCR to work earlier this week and, because I was in a hurry to get the posting done, decided to use the accounts I had, including Marlers statement that there may have been some kind of inconsistency in dates.
Today, I went to a neighbors house and watched the tape, which is about eight minutes long, and the dates jibe with YouTube. In my tape, you can actually hear Mary and husband Tony speaking gently to Chris at a couple of points while hes on the ventilator. And there is a segment following the Sept. 24 portion, dated Nov. 2, showing Chris sitting dressed and alert, and getting ready to go home from the hospital, followed by some tape of him arriving home, looking completely normal. Interestingly, this “good news” doesn’t appear on the YouTube tape.
As a journalist, though, I definitely shouldn’t make errors like that. When I do, I try to own up to them.
Be that as it may, in reviewing all this material, I feel that, given Mary’s suggestion that medical errors may have led to Chris going on life supoort, the title on YouTube making a connection with raw milk , is highly questionable. The tape’s narration is similarly misleading in suggesting that the raw milk put Chris on life support. And its implication that Chris was continually on a breathing apparatus is similarly misleading.
These problems, combined with the timing of the tape’s release, make it today what it has always been–a piece of pure propaganda. The Martins should never have asked for such a personal and emotionally explosive recording be made public in this way, to influence a piece of legislation, and Marler should never have gone along with posting it, accusing the defendant in a pending court case.
………..
Is it possible that the vendetta against unpasteurized milk has more to do with the use of the word ‘pasteurized’ as a euphemism for irradiation? If the intent is to irradiate most industrial food, and call it ‘pasteurized’ then the reason for using the latter term is because it already has a widely accepted association with healthful benefits and food purity. In order to maintain the fiction that pasteurization is good, and pasteurized food is healthier than unpasteurized food, then the raw milk movement must be destroyed, since it is antithetical to the ‘common wisdom’ that pasteurizing milk makes milk more nutritious/healthier than leaving the milk in its natural state, and producing it in a humane and hygienic manner.
I come to this conclusion because I find it hard otherwise to understand why so much effort is going into the wide-ranging assault on such a small niche market. And also because I recently noticed this: http://bill-marler.dailykos.com/
Based on his id number, I guess he joined recently, shortly before beginning his posts, some of which are not even written specifically for this blog, and which merely repeat. His purpose may be to advertise his practice (unlikely) or fearmonger about tainted food, or to attract a highly politically active group of people to eventually harness in his cause. Could there be a connection between his foray onto the biggest Democratic political blog and the pending Martin/OP trial? Or SB201?
Notice his responses to ‘Halcyon’ on the first post, on the 19th. He mocks the suggestion that he may be promoting irradiation. Not until six days later (8/25) does he admit: "Nuking food Actually a fan: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/22/MNAF12GA03.DTL
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-irradiateaug25,0,2630975.story "
On one of his ‘diaries ‘ (the one about ‘cow shit’) he accused a commenter by the name of ‘Gumpster’ of being David. Here’s Marler’s comment:
"Gumpster" a.k.a David Gumpert (1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
G2geek
David, I a very proud to be a lawyer representing victims of personal and corporate greed. And, yes, I do get paid doing it. I also spend about 1/2 my time for free talking to companies about why it is a bad idea to poison people (see, http://www.outbreakinc.com). Perhaps, I do that to give back and try to prevent more illnesses, perhaps it is a little guilt – people are complex, I am not different. I do not hide what I do – see my profile here, or take the time to visit http://www.billmarler.com.
David, I know that you promote the drinking of raw milk at you blog, http://www.completepatient.com, and I know you do not like the fact that I have sued manufacturers of raw milk who have poisoned children. But, the product you promote is no different that any other product. You really are no different than any PR man for any corporation you range against.
If a product is defective – E. coli tainted raw milk or an exploding pinto car – manufacturers under the law are treated the same. Those injured by defective products can seek compensation. I believe in the civil justice system. It is one of the only ways that people can stand up for their rights in the country.
I know you do not like me or what I do. You assume the worst, because anything else would challenge your beliefs and you can not do that. Actually, that says more about your inability to see different perspectives other than your own, than anything else. I feel badly for you.
Bill Marler
…………
David: Does anyone pay you to blog about raw milk?
Marler says he spends half his time "talking to companies". I wonder if some other companies pay him to spend so much of his time freely offering advice to food companies. And why would food companies need to be told "why it is a bad idea to poison people"? Surely they already know. What else do they talk about? So now we know that Bill Marler only represents victims of food poisoning part-time. And we know that he spends a lot of time consulting with the food industry. And he’s in favor of irradiating food, and he actively assists in the effort to ban raw milk. Hmm.
………..
There was a post at Daily Kos in April about th
Judging from that post, and others about food, I’d say there’s far more support for unadulterated food than for Bill Marler’s point of view at Daily Kos.
I try to avoid getting personal about people I disagree with. Bill Marler has a problem that way. I knew nothing about Daily Kos or Gumpster until Marler sent me a particularly nasty email about something Gumpster wrote last week. When I spoke with him earlier this week, I asked him what it was all about, and he finally realized I’m not Gumpster. To his credit, he issued an apology following my initial post about the Martin YouTube video.
As for me getting secretly paid to write about raw milk…gee, I wish I could figure out a way to do that…on second thought, scratch that idea.
Perhaps you are reading too much into it. The raw milk topic has gotten really heated as various events triangulate, and everyone is on edge. It seems like a bunch of folks (mostly in America, I assume) taking advantage of the freedom to express their opinions, and use mechanisms like the internet to make their voices heard. Marler, Gumpert, Fallon, whoever: Why get so involved in a video from "the other side?" Dates, cell phones, etc. I’ve watched this video
and seen numerous "cut and paste" efforts to promote a different agenda. So what? Is it propaganda? Who has dissected this video? The people must research it themselves and find the truth.
Also, what’s up with the new look (did I land on Saturn?). The "light side" is totally confused – grey, black, striped? Or evolving?
In today’s post, David, you said that Mary told you Chris had a collapsed lung, and that was the reason for the bipap. In that case, they could not have taken it off of him for any length of time, until the lung was partially re-inflated. That is new information. Ventilators are also hard on vocal chords, and people don’t like to speak for a while after being on one. The problem with medical information, is that it is all relative to what is going on. Unless you have the full story, there is no way to know what really happened.
Doctor’s aren’t gods. People sometimes expect them to be. HUS is rare enough that many doctors would most likely make the same mistakes, delaying important care. We won’t ever know for sure what poisoned Chris Martin. I wonder if Marler will be able to proves such a thing in court.
Gwen
to show the boy his ordeal should he recover?
to view years later to refresh the terrible memory?
personally i’m very suspect of the parents on this topic as i can find no logical conclusion besides them loading for bear for the lawsuit they already knew they were going to file against op regardless of the facts.
our society is extremely sue happy, so many folks are unable to bear responsibility for their choices and eager (even insistant) on finding someone to blame besides themselves.
they have to live with themselves and they have to sleep with the knowledge (even is tightly surpressed by denial) of their actions and lack of morle fortitude. i want nothing to do with people like them, and in the big scheme of things have no pitty for their trials and tribulations as they stumble thru life sans personal accountability.
amerian society is in a sad state.
hugh
I wrote a long letter to the hospital afterwards, pointing out things I did not think were beneficial, but also naming by name the nurses whom I felt were exceptional. I know these things to assist hospitals in improving their care.
Even as a nurse, I had no idea what all the machines, procedures and protocols were. It was not my area of expertise. It was all a blurr (I’d just had a baby), and I wanted a hard copy to look at later and evaluate what had happened. I also am very glad I took those pictures, because for her own sake, when she is 12 and asks me about the scars on her right wrist and on her left chest wall, I can show her pictures of when her wrist was cut down in attempt to get an arterial line in it, and pictures with the two chest tubes coming out of her tiny chest. A picture is worth a thousand words.
Months after she was discharged, I had the pictures in hand to look up words like "oscillating ventilator," and settings on the internet.
When I went back to work, I had pictures to show my coworkers what she and we had been through. I had pictures to show my older children, who were on the other side of the country when she was born; and to the family members who didn’t make it to the hospital.
It is pretty normal for people to want to go over tragic events in their lives, second by second, to re-evaluate them, and to find always new ways to view them and cope with them. A pictoral record helps with this. It is very wise to record as much as possible, for many reasons other than lawsuits. It is part of a coping and healing process.
Another coworker had a picture in his wallet of his 4 y/o daughter when she was in a NICU, with his wedding ring around her wrist. He carried it with him in part to remind him of how precious her life was to him.
What is unethical to me is Marler’s use of this video for political purposes. He is not only representing the family, but has taken it many steps further, posting it on the internet. He may be quiet now because of the lawsuit, but influencing a jury as a reason? I don’t think so. He has been a lawyer long enough to know better than to put such a video on YouTube!! And a family in the middle of the confusing legal world cannot be entirely blamed when their lawyer – the person they are trusting to represent them – persuades them or seeks their permission to use what they have recorded in such a way. It may not have been wise to give their permission, but I don’t blame them. I blame the lawyer and narrator, for agreeing or convincing them this was a good idea.
Gwen
If you are anti-raw milk and you read a statement made by Mark McAfee, a read flag goes up. In the past on this blog, he has made some outrageous statements that most people reading would question the validity.
The answer is in the video itself. It has now been determined that the dates seen are correct. At the end, when this child is laboring to breathe, does it look like he could sustain a conversation on the telephone without the use of oxygen? Could he sustain a conversation at all? Im guessing by what seems to me as an obvious conclusion, a few words spoken would probably take much effort.
This video is emotionally difficult to watch. The truth is shocking. A deadly bacterium caused this condition. It shouldnt matter how the contamination occurred. This child and family suffered and everyone should keep that in mind before a statement is made about the motivations behind why the video was made or why it was placed on YouTube. We have not walked in there shoes and I hope to God I never do.
I know most people here are not fans of Bill Marler so you may not want to read this on his blog. He posted the report from Connecticut regarding the recent raw milk outbreak. They did find the matching E.coli in the cows poop. I believe it said two of the children had developed HUS as a result of drinking contaminated milk.
Thanks to the Martin video, all raw milk drinkers now really know the risk theyre taking when giving their children raw milk, hamburger, spinach, or lettuce. These are all high risk foods for E.coli 0157:H7.
"It shouldnt matter how the contamination occurred"
Things matter when others are accused and the proof is lacking. If you accuse someone of something you need the proof to back up your accusations otherwise it holds no substance.
Unethical? I agree completely with Gwen.
I was glad to see that Mr Gumpert apologized too however, after his apology, he goes right back to say that the Martins made a bad choice to show the video on Youtube and calls it propeganda again. His apology seems like a piece propeganda for himself. Thanks but no thanks.
As you have also pointed out, what does it matter how the child got sick? Its a clear picture of HUS and a child suffering for it. Its amazing how some writers here are so defensive and cold. The dairy farmer is especially cold. He comes off so heartless and arrogant. Whether there is proof or not, the comments he has made make him look really bad.
He has absolutely NO sympathy for these children.
from previous posts you blasted the journalist that wrote the Harpers magazine Article, the AP and you also blasted Amanda Rose for not checking Facts before they write. You have done the same. Calling yourself a journalist is a joke. I guess anyone who does not agree with your point of view is wrong. And sorry, your apologie is Pathetic. For anyone who keeps writing about rehashing old news, I would ask David, he seems to be rehashing this all the time with wrong information.
Did someone say it wasn’t terrible that anyone become ill? Or when anyone becomes injured from an accident? I saw the you tube video, it appeared to be marler’s propaganda, exploiting the child. Shameful.
"worse care scenario "
What about the kid that flips on his bike, has a helmet on and snaps his neck— left trach & vent dependent, and don’t forget the feeding tube and suprapubic cath? Should we ban bikes? Or those who dive into a pool? Or car accidents? Or amusement rides? What about those who are allergic to peanuts? Or seafood? Shall we ban them too?
Doesn’t the cdc web site show that the over-all picture of illness is not caused by raw dairy? Perhaps all the other foods should be banned? Starting with the most common carriers of "bad" pathogens. That was we can prevent more illnesses. By golly Curious you are on to something!
Are you going to push for all foods to be sterilized? It’s always "horrible" whenever anyone becomes sick or injured.
Someone on this blog referred to others as bottom feeders…. the ads at the bottom are not different than ambulance chasers.
To call David a joke as a journalist is just showing your own inability to show compassion. How cruel to say his apology is pathetic, just because he is standing with his original opinion. It seems if the pro choice people stand firm to preserve these rights -YOUR RIGHT – to choose , the more you try to prove them wrong and continue arguing the same emotional arguments.
Concerned Reader called some of the writers "defensive and cold" . Well sorry ,but I haven’t got any warm fuzzies from anyone on this blog. I don’t expect it as this is a venue for us to express ourselves and we should be able to give and take without getting nasty or expecting agreement.
You cannot say that "the dairy farmer has absolutely no sympathy for the children" . Only God knows that – I can think of many a doctor , nurse, teacher, or lawyer that I could say the same about if I was a critical person and just judged them on that part of their personality. Maybe he is not reacting the way you want but I know being the compassionate bloggers you are you will understand that not everyone shares warm fuzzies the way you do. And some are just not so good at choosing the right words.
Doesn’t mean they don’t care.
Someone approached the Martins at a very emotionally draining time, and the video was put on youtube. So without a complete explanation from the Martins , we can only speculate. That is not fair to anyone . In MY Opinion , it looks like someone took advantage of them – Like I posted before – IF the intent was to educate the public on the risks of eating anything ,or the effects of HUS, it would have been professionally done, included health care professionals, and would have circulated through health organizations etc. first -not YouTube.
Yes, it is horrible that children are sick in hospitals. For ANY reason. It is horrible when they suffer from abuse , cancer, AIDS, or anything else. But just gasping "how horrible"doesn’t solve anything – neither does debating unless it is part of the process of research and treatment .We will never be able to protect our kids against everything.
If you feel information is wrong – post a correction with the link to back it up. I am sure any journalist would appreciate another source to research .
"The truth is shocking. A deadly bacterium caused this condition."
The "condition" you are referring to is HUS.The cause of the HUS was not the bacterium alone.The odds of deveolping HUS jumped from 8% to 56% when the first antibiotic was administered.The second one only served to make HUS inevitable.(see below)
http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news/Antibiotic-induces-liver-damage-in-children-with-E-COLI-infections–234-1/
" The strain of bacteria known as E. coli 0157:H7 causes some of the most serious digestive infections in both children and adults. Infections with this organism are often caused by eating undercooked meat. A major study shows using antibiotics to treat children with E. coli bacterial infection increases the risk of developing a potentially deadly liver disorder.
"Our data suggests that antibiotics are not only not helpful, but are potentially harmful in children with diarrhea caused by E. coli 0157," says study co-author, Dr. Phillip Tarr, of the Children’s Hospital and Regional Medical Center and the University of Washington in Seattle.
Children infected with E. coli develop both a very mild illness or severe bloody diarrhea. Infection can also lead to hemolytic-uremic syndrome (HUS),a condition leading to red blood cell breakdown.HUS is one of the leading causes of acute liver failure in young children.
The study examined children with diarrhea caused by E. coli and found 56% of the children who were given antibiotics developed HUS compared to just 8% of those who were not treated with antibiotics.
56% OF CHILDREN TREATED WITH ANTIBIOTICS DEVELOPED HUS AS COMPARED TO 8% OF THOSE WHO DID NOT.
On the basis of this study it should be made a practice to prescribe antibiotics only after the stool tests confirm that E.Coli is not the cause of the illness."
http://www.thecompletepatient.com/journal/2007/4/1/memoir-of-a-raw-milk-illness-turned-medical-nightmare-part-1.html
9/8 Friday:
"He also stated explicitly to the resident doctors that at no time should Chris be given antibiotics until the cause of the presenting symptoms is identified. He stated that giving antibiotics could make things much worse if this is e-coli.
(Note: I spoke with P.U., Health Plan Representative, on November 20, and she stated that Dr. As concerns about antibiotic administration are written into the record.)
Dr. A also stated that morphine could not be administered for my sons cramping because if it was a virus it could cause him to become constipated."
***********************************************************************************************
9/9 Saturday:
" (After consultation among several doctors) the first antibiotic (was ordered): Flagyl. "
9/10 Sunday:
" A second antibiotic was ordered: Claforan."
I believe that the doctors used the antibiotcs because they were desperate and they didn’t have any other treatment to offer.Had they only known what many farmers know they could have treated the diarreah without using antibiotics.If on entering the hospital,when chris was still able to keep some liqiud down,they had administered probiotics in small amounts regularily while making sure he did not become dehydrated,whatever his body was working so hard to eliminate could have been replaced with the type of bacteria that would stop the growth of the offending bacterium.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1201237
"The adhesion of lactobacilli to receptors on surface epithelial cells could compete for binding sites with enteric pathogens. It is also possible that lactic acid-producing bacteria reduce both the viability and the virulence properties of E. coli O157:H7 (6) and other diarrheagenic E. coli (19). In this study, we have demonstrated that these probiotics affect the virulence of E. coli O157:H7 and E. coli E2348/69 by factors other than their ability to reduce the pH or produce lactic acid. The ability of these probiotic strains to attenuate the pathogen-induced drop in TER at neutral pH values strongly supports this contention. Several previous reports indicated that factors other than lactic acid produced by probiotics, including bacteriocins, proteinases, peroxides, and exopolysaccharides, could exert antibacterial effects (3, 32). However, nondigestible oligosaccharides have not proven to be effective alternatives to viable probiotics in experimental animal models of bacterium-induced diarrheal disease (22, 30)."
The problem with antibiotics in diarreah is that it is damaging to the kidneys when the patient is dehydrated because the effect of a large dieoff of bacteria is to greatly increase the amount of toxins that need to be filtered from the blood. The blood is already flowing poorly because of dehydration.
The first antibiotic greatly increased the number of toxins in the blood.When bacteria die,the remains need to be eliminated like any other toxin even if those particular bacteria were not pathogens.The second antibiotic was given to kill a different type of bacteria.when those bacteria died their corpses needed to be eliminated also.
The true source of Chris’ illness has never been determined.The bacterium was never traced to any of the foods he ate.
Did you not read where I said it was horrible when anyone became ill or injured?
" Thanks to the Martin video, all raw milk drinkers now really know the risk theyre taking when giving their children raw milk, hamburger, spinach, or lettuce. These are all high risk foods for E.coli 0157:H7. "
Oh I get it, you are the only one allowed to bring up other items that cause injury/illness?
Curious , I get the feeling you will not accept any response – and that’s ok .
Miguel – thanks for the post – always thought provoking.
If I see another adult pick a pacifier off the ground – suck it off-and put it back in their childs mouth should I report them ?- after all they could be endangering their children by allowing them to ingest bacterium …
Ive had a revelation after reading all the posts the last few days regarding the Martin video. The pro-raw milk people have a theme and it is repeated over and over again regardless of the information presented. Its like a tape recorder is played and the same answer given over and over regardless of the circumstances. Let me list them:
1. Freedom of choiceNo one is going to tell me what I can or cant feed my family. I have a right to choose raw milk.
2. Pathogens in raw milkRaw milk is not the only food with pathogens. Other foods get people sick. Why dont we make those foods illegal?
3. A person becomes sick with a foodborne pathogenThe person had a weak immune system. They wouldnt have become ill if they had a healthier gut. Bacteria are opportunistic. Its not the bacterias fault. The fact that a pathogen was in the food isnt an issue. Its the hosts bodies fault for not being able to fight it off.
4. A person becomes sick after drinking raw milkRefer to # 2, & 3 and add people get sick every day from other illnesses. The hospitals are filled with sick people. The problem is people have become antibiotic resistant. Do you know how many people die every year because theyve become antibiotic resistant? Why dont we talk about this as well as the problem with the pharmaceutical industry? This is what is killing people, not raw milk
Reading everyones remarks about the Martin boy video made me realize that nothing will penetrate the raw milk mantra. You all posted your typical remarks and even engaged in a ludicrous debate about whether this poor boy talked on his cell phone. There was a complete lack of compassion and sensitivity to what was even viewed on the video. You respond as if you watched a movie, not a real event. Something is seriously wrong if after viewing this video the only topics addressed by the pro raw milk group were the accuracy of the dates, the speculation of cell phone use and accusing the parents of exploiting their child.
The video didnt trigger one discussion about improving raw milk safety. Why not? Especially after the recent Connecticut outbreak where they found the matching blueprint of E.coli 0157:H7. Children are the ones who suffer. Doesnt anyone care about this?
I enjoy a good debate, but I cant stomach this blog anymore.
As much as I can feel what these parents feel, I cannot understand putting it all on for show. When over 25 years ago my son fell through a screen to the ground five stories below there was no-one we or he could sue. Causation was not in question, as it is in the California case. There just wasn’t a law covering it. If you read warnings on screens today (I helped to write them), you will know that screens are not intended to keep kids inside. As if we, or anyone else, needs to be told this (just as obviously, the kids who are most at risk certainly can’t even read the warning – so much for warnings). We had to get on with our lives, and we chose not to spend emotional energy, money and lots of time trying to make something right that was so clearly wrong. Things happen. Kids push beds over to high windows, climb up on air conditioners and fall out.
Bacteria are everywhere, including in raw milk. Causation in a civil lawsuit needs to be proved by the standard of being only more likely than not (51%). This is far short of the standard required of any scientific proof, never mind the standard required in criminal cases (beyond a reasonable doubt). Since OPDC raw milk is only in a few places, including apparently in the Martin diet, then it’s possible that a jury would conclude by this or some other logic that OPDC was the cause of his illness, setting aside for the moment the intervening actions of doctors administering antibiotics and then saving his life anyway. In this world of 51% possibilities, a little propaganda may influence a potential jury, but this seems unlikely. What is more likely, is that the propaganda and the emotional pitch such as we are experiencing on this blog, will reach its own fever and result in the capitulation of OPDC’s insurance company to settle. which is the result in more than 90% of all litigation; and from what I understand, settlement is the case in at least this proportion of Mr. Marler’s cases, perhaps even more.
What we are witnessing and discussing, beyond an individual family’s trauma, is an example of how litigation and propaganda are orchestrated in America to result in dollars sticking to a few pockets as a result of unusual individual circumstances, and a consequent distortion of normal commerce in the larger picture. The power of a video is such that anyone seeing it fears for themselves, for their children, for their parents. The case for the vast majority is not what happened to this unfortunate child. My heart goes out to Chris. My head stays with the need to have choice in what I choose to eat. I resent the attempt to mix these two separate issues, to force me to have my choices restricted, and in this regard, I view the video as propaganda, just as surely as any intentional effort to influence whether common advertising or pernicious Nazi Olympic films.
I guess the same could be said about the posts by you and others who don’t understand the human body and human nature. You also repeat the same negative mantra that we are the ones with no compassion and no sensitivity. That we are against raw milk safety , and that we do not acknowledge that bacteria exist in food. You also state ( incorrectly ) that those in favor of raw milk blame people for their illness, think no one would be ill if they had a healthy gut, and that it is their own body’s fault for not fighting it off. Your use of the word "fault" is a clever addition – I don’t recall anyone using the word, or blaming the way you interpret nor did anyone say kids would never get sick if they had a healthy gut. We simply have observed they didn’t get sick as much or as severely.Many Posts had interesting links to read , and we are free to take it or leave it. Also the comparison of kids getting sick from food or raw milk to the other illnesses and injuries puts things in perspective – it is good to look at the whole picture. If all we look at is raw milk, we would be narrow minded .
I am all for regular testing that occurs on dairy farms – our milk is monitored constantly – what bothers me is all the other foods, imported and local are not and no one seems to fly off about that the way you do over raw milk. I do not recall any meaningful solution on your part to ensure raw milk safety , and I think you confuse objectivity with lack of sensitivity. I am sensitive – I had a child with e-coli and I think you are very callous for even thinking I’m not.
After the second antibiotic was given to Chris,it appears from the record that nothing was done to fight the bacterium.All of the treatment from that point on was simply to support his vital processes in order to keep him alive.It would seem that the e-coli would have easily killed him in his weakened state if it was left unchecked.How can this be explained?
If the antibiotics were never given to him and his vital processes were simply supported until his body had finished eliminating whatever had made him sick,wouldn’t he have been saved a lot of suffering and damage?Even in his weakened state his body and will were still strong enough to defeat the bacterial infection.The damage done to him seems to be the result of incorrect medical treatment.The incorrect treatment is a result of a misunderstanding of the cause of his illness.FEAR is not a good councillor in situations like this.FEAR of bacteria leads to mistakes in treatment.We should be teaching doctors and parents to understand microbes rather than to fear them..Medical proffessionals are too limited in the tools they have available to treat illness and the consequences of using the tools in the wrong situation are too great.
In my life I have raised many lambs and calves.We used to have a few cases of bloody diarreah.The prescribed treatment was to give pennicillin.If the animal didn’t show signs of improvement in 24 hours then we were supposed to try a different antibiotic.All of the time making sure to keep the animal hydrated with electrolytes.We lost a few with those methods.Now we feed probiotics daily and occassionally with a sudden change of weather we will see a bit of diarreah,but never anything serious enough to require any treatment.
That would be Bob Hayles giving Marler crap – miss them both. And, since I’m back (sorta) – what’s with the striped pants on either side (I’d rather see MarlerClark ads).
And, Gwen – I apologize 100x over – your post shows complete passion for your patients. We’ll never be able to "play in the sandbox" nicely, but I really respect your compassion for people and the reasons you are involved in this movement. For what it’s worth, that’s priceless.
I apologize in advance for being long winded, but I find I have a lot to say.
There is another "mantra" you missed that is repeated by many of us who are raw milk advocates — the lack of pasteurization is not what creates healthy fresh milk that we like consume. The quality of the milk is critical, and few, if any, of us would be willing to consume unpasteurized milk from farms who produce for bulk tanks. The farming practices are of keen interest to us and we believe there is a profound difference in pasture fed cows who are raised without stress and able to walk around most of their lives and conventional farming.
But this not a simplistic issue that can fairly be reduced to a few hot button points. We’re talking about a way of life, a learning process, an exchange much more profound and complex than simply a nutrient rich drink.
If you only look at the output you are pretty much missing the whole point.
And yeah, many of us feel this is about much more than milk.
That’s why I’m willing to spend my time, money, and other resources to support our herd share group. And yes, take on some risk as well which I have carefully considered and feel is worth the benefits.
I talk to our farmer, visit the cows, observe the cleanliness of the milking parlor, ask question if I have any concerns. I’ve had some of the produce fertilized with the manure from our herd. Meanwhile we have the farmer being able to make money from farming, Another member who supplements her farm income by bringing the milk into the city for us. People discovering the forgotten skills of making butter, yogurt, cheese, and more. We have an informal exchange of cultures and recipes. We have new friendships and relationships formed from the interactions required to manage our small milk share group. We have a farm we can visit and kids who know where milk comes from and the name and color of the cows who provide it. We have an increased awareness of cows and farming and a part of life most of us have ignored all of our lives. And that has had a profound affect on most of the families in our group, as well as the friends and others who we talk to about this choice. We have a small anecdotal list of health benefits many of us have experienced, mine is simply that for the first time in my life I can drink milk without getting sick afterwards.
There are plenty of people who support the ideas and values we have learned but who find time and money to be barriers to participation, as well as some who are just afraid but like the idea of fresh milk directly from the farm. But our experience has still had profound effects on people’s feelings and attitudes and support of local farmers and unprocessed food. We’re certainly the outliers doing something most of the population will never want to do, but with our more extreme position it becomes easier for more and more people to move a little further in making healthy natural nutrient dense unprocessed food choices. And I believe most strongly that that is a very good thing for individuals and for the planet.
So my request is don’t try and reduce this issue of access to raw milk to a few simple knee jerk attack points. Our reasons and responses for participating in a herd share are complex and after five plus years of doing it are deeply woven into our lives and lifestyles.
When I joined a herd share I really did think that is was just about better quality milk. It it so much more than that. And those deep rich connections around food are part of the healthy benefits.
And I recognize that there are also a myriad of reasons to not want to be involved – ranging from fear to inconvenience to time and money constraints, legitimate concerns about quality and contamination, lack of access, or having chosen other healthy options. And so many more. Some logical and some not. It’s a process. I fully support all of us learning more about our health choices, the accusations and attempts to control each other I’d rather skip.
If we took the time to learn about the people posting (and real names would be a start!) I suspect we’d find interesting ancillary practices as well that would shed more light onto the lifestyle choices. Me, I live close to downtown, keep bees, am hoping to start with chickens in the next few weeks. My front lawn is all vegetables and herbs, as well as being a certified Monarch Waystation. I do wildcrafting, keep a freezer full of food I’ve grown or wild harvested, and make most of my own herbal medicines. I try to walk and bike as much as possible – part of the reason I don’t live out on a farm. I make butter and yogurt weekly, grind my own flour for sourdough bread, and serve on the board of directors of the local Food Co-op. I’m self employed but also teach health from High School to Med School students.
I have a brother fighting for his life with at last count 4-5 separate auto immune diseases. Just in the last month he finally got it that food and nutrition may be a factor. I hope it isn’t too late. We all have our stories and struggles and heart aches around health and people we love. I’ve personally watched too many family members die and had their quality of life severely curtailed because of "lifestyle" diseases.
It is easy to attack and generalize nameless faceless people. But it doesn’t help. I’m real, I’ve had David Gumpert to my house for dinner (with 30 other raw milk advocates) and found him to be both very real but also delightful and a dedicated and intelligent journalist. The primary subject of this blog is an emotional issue, and a complex issue. Most of the time the participants on this blog have agreed to build bridges and connections and understanding and not just take cheap shots or insist there is only one correct position.
That’s what I’m here for.
-Linda Diane Feldt
For those who think I should come up with a solution. Isn’t that what SB 201 in California is addressing? According to Bill Marler, there seems to be a few items that need to be added, but I thought most on this blog thought this legislation was something positive.
Steve, could you please go into more detail about what you view as the propaganda aspect of the video?
Curious, I have spent the last 10 years of my life at patient bedsides, and I say, it is not "obvious." That is why I take huge issue to the whole cell phone story. Just last night, a patient of mine, who sounded just as bad as this child, took off her oxygen 3 times to talk on the phone. A few hours later, when she was sleeping, you could have taken the same sort of video. I have in my visual memory between 100-200 similar circumstances; possibly more…having oxygen alarms go off, and running back to the room to find a patient awake, with mask off, phone in hand.
The only thing that is obvious about this entire video is what it is trying to accomplish. Until you have quotations from the medical chart and labs for that day, and clips of this child awake, don’t bother with the cell phone argument again, PLEASE. It sounds ignorant.
Gwen
Unsanitary practices, poor animal heath, animal diets/environments are the main culprets. Guidelines are set supposedly with the basics of minimizing contamination. Yet, even with maintaining sanitary conditions, contamination may still occur, nothing is fool proof. Sterlizing food is not the answer.
So back to the same statement. E.coli 0157:H7 is contaminating raw milk. How should that be addressed, solved, without sterlizing milk?
SB 201 has some good ideas. Can everyone agree with that?
BTW my earlier post’s reference to the German Olympic filmmaker Riefenstahl was unfortunate, since it was and is not my intent to label anyone a Nazi.
The individuals sickened had acquired a condition known as Hemolytic Uremic Syndrome (HUS) and one case of Thrombotic Thrombocytopenic Purpura (TTP). HUS is a disorder that occurs when an infection in the digestive system produces toxic substances that destroy red blood cells. It often effects the kidneys. This disorder is most common in children. It often occurs after a gastrointestinal (enteric) infection, often caused by a type of Escherichia coli (E. coli) bacteria, O157:H7. Unpasteurized (Raw) milk has been associated with several outbreaks of E. coli O157:H7 infections in the U.S. Other outbreaks of E. coli O157:H7 have been associated with undercooked or raw hamburger (ground beef), unpasteurized fruit juices, alfalfa sprouts, dry-cured salami, lettuce, game meats and from transmission from animals to humans from contact with infected animals. HUS also can be caused by other enteric infections, including Shigella and Salmonella, and some non-enteric infections. Patients with TTP have clinical and pathologic features similar to patients with HUS.
In addition to Department of Agriculture staff, the investigation involved the Connecticut Department of Public Health and local health departments. After extensive testing of milk, milk contact surfaces, water sources, the environment in and around the farm and processing plant and, analysis of feces from each milking aged animal, the department obtained a genetic fingerprint match between E. coli O157:H7 recovered from the feces of 1 cow and E. coli O157:H7 isolated from 3 patients.
Approximately 170 separate samples and specimens of milk, water, feces and swabs of milk contact surfaces were analyzed by the DPH Public Health Laboratory in a 3 week period. A review of scientific literature reveals that E. coli O157:H7 as well as other food borne pathogens most likely are introduced into milk by contamination from animals shedding the organism in their feces. Direct introduction of pathogens into the milk from the bloodstream is unlikely but can not be ruled out. The department has concluded that the most likely cause of this food borne illness outbreak was the consumption of Retail Raw Milk contaminated with E. coli O157:H7. While good sanitation and management practices can lower the incidence of pathogens in raw milk we believe and studies support the position that pasteurization is the only proven way to eliminate pathogens from raw milk.
The Connecticut Department of Public Health and the Food and Drug Administration, and other public health authorities such as the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the National Conference on Interstate Milk Shipments, the National Association of State Departments of Agriculture, the Association of Food and Drug Officials, and National Association of State Public Health Veterinarians all oppose the consumption of unpasteurized milk because of the health risks.