Is the Debate Over Raw Milk Doomed to Remain Stuck in the Quicksand of Ideology? Confronting Marler Over Local Food
Tuesday, January 6, 2009 at 09:09PM 
Sylvia Gibson poses a recurring question following my previous post: Why is it that our regulators and legislators come down so hard in following up on illnesses from raw milk, but do nothing when people become sick and even die from other foods like cold cuts, jalepeno peppers, and pasteurized milk?
I wish I could say it’s all payoffs by agribusiness; while that may be a factor (the payoffs being in the form of campaign contributions and highly paid lobbyists), I think it’s more complicated. Some parts of the answer can be seen in the back-and-forth between Mark McAfee of Organic Pastures Dairy Co. and a number of readers—following my previous post and my Dec. 29 post.
I’ve been a big supporter of Mark since I came to know him during the September 2006 shutdown of his dairy by state and federal regulators. I admire his courage in standing up to the state and federal regulators who have tried to drive him, and other smaller producers, out of business—not because I automatically oppose the regulators, but because the regulators have been uneven, and even unethical, in their enforcement of regulations affecting food-borne illness. One of the big reasons the regulators dislike Mark so passionately is because he stands up to them.
Yet one of the things that stands out to me in the latest back-and-forth between Mark and Elizabeth McInerney, Observer, and Concerned is the ideological nature of Mark’s comments. When you are beholden to an ideology, then there is no way to admit weaknesses in your beliefs.
So Mark argued, among other things, that that there have been no complaints to the state about his products, that there have been no pathogens detected in his animals, and that pathogens aren’t really pathogens to people who build up immunity to them. Similarly many would argue that the Weston A. Price Foundation in many of its arguments—especially its denial of the possibility that raw milk could have lead to illnesses at Dee Creek and Organic Pastures—is ideological as well.
To his credit, Mark eventually admitted in his most recent comments following my previous post that some of the arguments on his web site may be inappropriate, and says he’s removing them.
The fact that Mark and the Weston A. Price Foundation tend toward the ideological is unfortunate. But even more unfortunate is that the people Mark battles with—the California Department of Food and Agriculture, the California Department of Public Health, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control—are equally ideological. They continue to argue that unpasteurized milk is a more serious health menace than pretty much any other food around, and thus must be eliminated via all available means—regulatory harassment, legislative restrictions, and propaganda--as part of an ever-more-sanitized food system. Yet we know the arguments about the extreme dangers of raw milk are untrue by virtue of the fact that hundreds of thousands of people consume the product every day without becoming sick and because data show relatively few illnesses each year from raw milk.
They refuse to take part in serious public discussions and debate, as we saw clearly in the year-long battle played out in California over the ten-coliform-per-milliliter standard for raw milk that was secretly pushed through the legislature in late 2007. Then, though Mark managed to lead an effort to change the standard via compromise and discussion, the regulators refused discussion and the governor vetoed the change without engaging in any kind of dialog.
But this is the nature of ideological arguments. They aren’t worked through in an atmosphere of understanding and compromise. They are battles, with every piece of data and every example of sickness or recovery around raw milk seen as a piece of propaganda, to be used or misused in an ongoing war.
Yet, the question persists: If Mark and the Weston A. Price Foundation were less ideological, would it make a difference to the regulators and legislators? Would the establishment respond differently if Mark refrained from labeling the FDA as “corrupt” and passing around prescription slips for raw milk at farmers markets, or would it simply interpret a more conciliatory approach as a sign of weakness, and perhaps press its harassment efforts even harder?
Elizabeth wants to see more of an effort at conciliation, as she says so well to Mark: “You might be one of the leaders of this movement, but it is my movement too, and I'm afraid that in your zeal to promote OP, you will end up screwing it up for the rest of us.”
To which Mark responds: “As blogging observers and writers, please take a deep breath and consider that OPDC is under a microscope (literally like no other dairy) and we try our damned best. If you embrace choice and raw milk, try supporting OPDC as your champion. Critical bashing is just that.”
I’m not sure I’ve answered Sylvia’s question, but hopefully begun to frame the problem. Ideological battles usually end when one side or the other gives up or just collapses from exhaustion.
***
There’s lots of interesting discussion going on about food regulation at The Ethicurean, in response to a very favorable, almost fawning, assessment of food poison lawyer Bill Marler.
The Ethicurean writer seems to have allowed herself to become charmed by Marler’s glib explanations of why he supports local food producers. But Marler has a lot of difficulty accepting the criticism that, for all his suggestions that he supports local food producers, he really sees all producers as the same from a legal perspective, and doesn’t want to see meaningful regulatory adjustments made for smaller producers.
His difficulty handling criticsim comes out following the second comment on the Ethicurean post, from Sam Spade, who captures the Marler problem real well. To which Marler responds, (and I'm partially paraphrasing here): "You don't know me...You don't understand how much I care..." It comes across as dismissive, in a cavalier way. People who really do care will discuss any criticism, try to rebut, show inaccuracies or illogical thinking, and allow that possibly some of what the critic has to say holds merit.
Reader Comments (32)
My ideology is based on what 40,000 people every week share with me about drinking raw milk in CA. That pasteurized milk makes them sick and raw milk makes them well.
What is the FDA ideology...it is a culture of fear, sterile foods, intimidation, excused medical death and commercial drug pushing.
I would not compare the two ideologies on balance or in contrast. One is of nature, the truth and the people and the other is ugly, greedy and criminal.
Mark
It takes a big and open minded person to admit things could be improved upon and at anothers suggestion, make those changes; it speaks volumes about a person. I haven't looked at your changes yet Mark.
I would also hope that anyone researching anything would seek out many web sites/areas, not just a select few to aide them in becoming informed.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/specials/honey/
I get my honey at the Sunday Farmer's Market, he doesn't have a lot. It's raw, unfiltered and local.
I wish that we had enough money to conduct a credible study that shows the health benefits and the economic benefits of drinking raw milk. Mothers know in their wisdom that this is true, but that will never make raw milk legal.
You can try to please regulators, but they don't hold the majority of children in their hearts. They are after the teeny tiny minority, for reasons I don't understand.
-Blair
In 2005, Mark flew out to Colorado on his own expense to defend our right to choose. The herdsahre bill passed, thanks to his passion and cogent testimony - at the time there was one legal dairy in the state, with a 1-year waiting list. Now there are 36 legal raw dairies in Colorado, and hardly any one has to wait.
I think any imperfections on his website are vindicated by his vision and activism. You can take your perfect vision of raw dairy and put it where the sun don't shine. sorry - I'm angry about your previous post.....on a political blog about raw milk, you should have known better. We all are human. We do the best we can, and consumers know that is better than 99% of the crap the other guys want to feed us. Get a grip, will you? Shame on you, and Amanda, for trying to make Mark perfect. I wish all men would lead as Mark leads. And David - quit the friendly fire. these guys are healing me.
-Blair
18 months ago the head food safety "expert" at the PDA testified before the Pa. Ag. committee " No child nor the eldery should ever consume raw dairy for any reason ever" Atmosphere of understanding and compromise? Not here!
"Food is power we use it to change behavior some may call it bribery. We do not apologize" Catherine Bertini former UN World Food Director and US Assistant Ag. Sec.
The food police use guns, badges and courts to enforce their will on peaceful farm famlies producing a healthy natural product called raw milk. No compromise or atmosphere of understanding there!
The new Ag. Sec. reportedly is very close to Monsanto and other GMO companies thats not good news.
The above is just a few examples of what the raw dairy folks are dealing with and would have to comprised with. How can someone comprise with someone that is out to destroy and control them?
Perhaps our only hope is for massive amouts of people giving up on what is making them sick the SAD and switch to real food. I hope that happens before we go totally bankrupt, yesterday the new faces announced that they will start off with a $1 TRILLION dollar budget deficit and yearly TRILLION deficits into the future. SIMPLE MATH will not let that continue for long. "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value zero" Voltaire 1778
Thank you Mark as well, I don't have to agree with everything you say and do. I appreciate that you are on the front lines making progress and helping keep the issue alive. It isn't easy being a target.
Meanwhile, I would also like choice about organic almonds. I laid in a large supply just before the new regulations, and am almost out. Is there a source for true raw organic almonds? If anyone can help, please contact me privately. ldfeldt (at) holisticwisdom.org
Thanks to everyone who is making it possible for me to enjoy raw milk, as well as the many other health choices I make that are not yet approved/accepted by the main stream.
**
Shame on you, and Amanda, for trying to make Mark perfect. I wish all men would lead as Mark leads.
**
I suppose I should read the previous post, but I make no apologies for expecting my food products to fit their label claims. I expect it of big food producers and of small. It sounds like you and I have different standards for our men, Blair.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/kwiatkowski/kwiatkowski220.html
Firstly, let me say how very thankful I am that you have dedicated so much of your time to creating this website and helping us to sort out these issues. Secondly - Mark - let me also say how thankful I am that you are fighting this "ideological" battle for raw milk (I met you at a VICFA meeting about two years ago). Finally, let me be brief. I do not believe that this is an ideological battle. It is a political battle, but it is not ideological. Just last year I struggled with the thought that the FDA/USDA might be corrupt - in the classical, ordinary sense. Now, since I am an establishment man; that is, a twenty year career as a Navy flier, a short post-retirement career as a police officer, and now a candidate for orders in the Anglican Church, it was +ideology+ that made me so reluctant to understand what was going on with these milk wars. Now I believe it +is+ corruption. I called it "Sheehan's Jihad" on the Weston Price Chapter Leader's discussion group a while back. And I still make that claim.
As for the pathogens. I've had to overcome my inhibitions about drinking "raw milk" just like everyone else. But after four years of watching it work miracles in my family and experimenting with "dirty milk" just to see if I could make myself sick - I issue a challenge: Let the government of California mail me any sample from Mark's dairy which they claim to be tainted with pathogens and I will drink it in the presence of a Notary Public (here in Virginia). And we shall see. I make this challenge for two reasons 1) I am utterly convinced of Mark's integrity and 2) I believe that it would be virtually impossible to get sick on OPDC milk .
This is not about ideology. This about corruption and truth.
Don
----------------------------
Salmonella outbreak spreads to 42 states, CDC says
Jan 7, 4:06 PM EST
ATLANTA (AP) -- Health officials are investigating a salmonella outbreak that reportedly has sickened nearly 400 people in 42 states, but they do not yet know exactly how the bacteria has been spreading.
The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has not named all the states, but Ohio health officials have reported at least 50 people in 18 counties have been sickened by salmonella bacteria since October.
Most people infected with salmonella develop diarrhea, fever and abdominal cramps 12 to 72 hours after infection. The illness usually lasts four to seven days, and most people recover without treatment.
Officials say steps to protect against the illness include careful handling and preparation of raw meat, and frequent hand washing.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MED_SALMONELLA_OUTBREAK?SITE=FLDAY&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
David,
My answer to your question is no. This issue (like so many others) is a battle between the individual rights of citizens (in this case farmers and consumers) versus the government's desire to have control over what we get to put in our bodies.
In my opinion, Mark MacAfee is correct: The FDA is corrupt. Protecting the market share of agribusiness IS the major reason that government is moving against the producers of raw dairy.
There is a fight going on. The power is on the side of the bureaucracy. Mark's farm/home is at ground zero. I don't blame him for being riled up. Some American and Canadian farmers have been subjected to a disproportionate level of force in the execution of ADMINISTRATIVE search warrants at family farms!
I'm all for being polite but sometimes the truth is ugly. You should not be damned for being honest. The opposition will not respect our individual rights no matter how nice we are to them.
Why go quietly?
Robert Monahan
Dr. Kwiatkowski has an eloquent perspective.
Don N.
I didn't see anything on the evening news about any outbreaks. Wonder why they haven't said anything? You are right, had it been raw milk, it'd have been plastered in the news and shut down.
I've been bombarded all day with news clippings and blogs covering the Salmonella outbreak. Bummer that public health cannot figure out the cause of an outbreak in 1 hour like a CSI TV episode.
Some examples of news coverage...
USA Today
CDC activates emergency group to find salmonella source
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-01-07-salmonella_N.htm?csp=34
Reuters
Salmonella outbreak sickens 388 across U.S.: CDC
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE5066E420090107?feedType=RSS&feedName=healthNews
AP
Salmonella outbreak spreads to 42 states, CDC says
California officials report 51 cases as of last week
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090107/ap_on_he_me/med_salmonella_outbreak
You do not know me and do not know the extent of my efforts to support both raw milk and local food. "shut up" is also offensive, not something anyone deserves to hear, indepedent of how you feel about them.
I happen to be very thankful for everything that Mark has done. I enjoy most of his posts. I find them to be very colorful and full of enthusiasm. I have never met him, but have the feeling that I would like him if I did.
However, this whole thread started with an objection I had with CP's assertion that probiotics are an acceptable substitute to raw milk. She is also very adamant about warning labels. I tired to understand, voiced much frustration with these antii-raw-milk positions, asked a question, and in the process, figured out that CP is probably Mary Martin, a mother who feels her son was seriously injured by OP milk, and who has repeatidly asked Mark, on this blog, to fix his writings. At the time (2 years ago?) I thought her requests were reasonable and assumed they would be made. I was shocked to find out they had not.
Mary is a well spoken person who writes well, does thorough research, and has a compelling story to tell. She is also, I believe, suing Mark. It is very important to the raw milk movement that Mark is vicorious in this law suit and that both Mark and the Weston Price Foundation give Mary as little ammo as possible when she writes her book, which I have no doubt she will do.
I will admit that I could have been less sarcastic in my requests to Mark. I am very very tired of the whole OP/Sept 06 issue and I believe that BOTH Mark and Mary are responsible for it dragging on. However that does not excuse sarcasm on my part and I will try to control myself in future posts.
"It is your choice, and with raw milk (exercise, good hydration, a whole-food diet, and plenty of love) you need not become ill, ever."
I tried re-writing it, but I guess I would just take it out. The problem is that if an immune-compromised person were to start everything on the same day, and also be unlucky enough to encounter a pathogen in their first sample of raw milk, they might become ill.
I think we also need clarification on Amanda's assertion that the pathogens introduced into your milk did not die out. Your sentence about that implies that they did. I do not have the report in front of me, so I can't comment. I would like to see you come to an agreement with Amanda on that one. Actually, it is important that CP has by-in to these revisions too.
Elizabeth
The salmonella outbreak was not broadcast on the local TV stations in Sacramento. I've no doubt it will eventually make it to our local news. An hour like CSI? <snickering-never happen with the govt> Those poor people have been suffering since Oct.
Elizabeth,
If he were to change the wording to something like: It is our belief that...."It is your choice, and with raw milk (exercise, good hydration, a whole-food diet, and plenty of love) you need not become ill, ever." However, we believe you are responsible for researching any changes you plan.....yadayada. People are responsible for thier choices.
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE5066E420090107?feedType=RSS&feedName=healthNews
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vetext/INF-DA/ExpwSalmonella.pdf
What a visual of the feedlot dairies and how the cows are "cared" for.
We still have about 16,000 pounds left and will ship them direct to you. Yum!!
We are also very excited that Cornicopia is kicking the USDA's butt on the mandatory almond pasteurization rule and the mislabing issue with raw almonds. Many almond growers have joined into the legal fight. We will know lots more this year and it appears we can win and show our power as growers against the machine and for the consumer.
I spent an hour with Senator Dean Florez and Christine Chessen ( president of California Raw Milk Association CREMA ) today in Sacramento. His new office is awsome now that he has earned the position of speaker of the CA senate. Christine and I both drank raw milk and ate delicious microcupcakes inside the state capitol. Times they are a changin!! We discussed raw milk issues and going progressively forward legislatively in 2009. I can not share the details yet...but lets just say...it is going to be a great year in CA. The base of support has grown for the legislative effort we have chosen and it will be a great day for more than raw milk.
It is essential that individual voices and choices are preserved and protected. That means your choice to drink raw milk or drink what ever you chose.
This is the very foundation of freedom and being America. I respect and will defend all of the voices here as long as those voices protect other peoples private rights and choices.
Sadly...the FDA has actively denied the rights of citizens in Nevada and our surrounding states to access raw milk. Much is happening right now to correct this injuctice and FDA denial of our rights to eat food of our chosing. I will details share soon.
Mark
"The California campaign, funded largely by the Humane Society of the United States, featured images of hens and other livestock in cramped cages and crates. Voters had a visceral reaction.
People tend to know little about how meat and eggs are produced, Rollin said, "And when they're presented with it, it's jarring."
This is in regards to Proposition 2 that was voted in last fall. Too bad they didn't appear to educate on the difference between "cage free" and free range. I believe that using tactics such as these (or more detailed) would educate people about the factory dairies and the previous link I posted from UCD; the living conditions of the cows, would touch people and give them a clear visual of where thier milk comes from. It may not sway any towards raw dairy, yet it may open eyes and force a change for the better with the factory dairies. I think a visual picture would last longer than mere words in peoples minds.