The concept of “beginner’s mind” in Zen Buddhism advises us that, no matter how advanced we might think our knowledge of any subject, we should always seek to approach it from the perspective of the beginner.
I felt as if I was being pushed to adopt beginner’s mind yesterday while speaking to a group of about 40 attendees at the Bioneers by the Bay conference in New Bedford, MA, when I tried to answer tough questions from several about the government’s most recent campaign against raw milk over the past three years. While the conference explores all kinds of issues around sustainability, it has an environmental orientation, which explains why probably three-fourths of the attendees at my presentation weren’t super-familiar with the legal and regulatory problems around raw milk over the last few years. But they were young–most seemed to be in their twenties and thirties–and extremely curious about raw milk, and why it is so controversial.
Here were some of the questions I received:
- Is raw milk really dangerous?
- If not, why is there so much opposition to it by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and many state agriculture and public health people?
- Why is the FDA devoting such extensive resources to stamping out raw milk, when there are so many other real problems for it to tend to?
- How worried are Big Ag and Big Dairy about inroads being made by raw milk’s growing popularity?
I should say that the attendees didn’t automatically agree with me when I explained things from my perspective. For example, one attendee grilled me on my contention that, based on statistics from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control, showing an average of 50-100 reported illnesses each year from raw milk over 33 years, it isn’t a public health hazard. He said it wasn’t necessarily a low number if the number of raw milk drinkers is low.
I tried to explain that while it’s true we don’t know the number of raw milk drinkers (this isn’t a number American public health scientists are clamoring to obtain), that based on some partial government research, the number is most likely one million or more, making the number of illnesses low in that context.
I had more difficulty trying to explain why the FDA is so opposed to raw milk, when it clearly isn’t a public health hazard. A number of the participants were convinced the aggressive anti-raw-milk campaign results from a combination of Big Ag and Big Pharma being threatened by the notion that we can use nutrient dense foods like unpasteurized milk to improve our health.
I explained that while these are certainly factors, I saw the bigger problem as a serious division based on belief systems. The dynamics of that belief system are described well by Tim Wightman in his comment following my previous post.
Even here, though, a few of the participants weren’t completely satisfied. What exactly did I mean about differences in belief systems? I tried to explain how differences in the approaches of conventional and alternative medicine, along with differing attitudes toward prescription drugs, skyrocketing rates of chronic disease, and toward the idea of “good” bacteria.
Surely there had to be something more, a few suggested, to justify the sometimes bizarre sting operations, undercover activities, and harassment of the sort that most recently occurred in Georgia. Yes, I had to admit, there was likely another factor involved: Not only do many of the regulators disagree vehemently about the dangers of raw milk, but they thoroughly disparage those who support raw milk. In fact, I told my listeners, it’s fair to say that people like John Sheehan, who runs the FDA’s dairy division, along with supporters like Bill Marler, simply dislike advocates for raw milk. Sheehan has shown his disdain by refusing to allow any discussion with raw milk advocates, by himself or any of his subordinates.
After the Saturday session, I went back and re-read the seemingly conciliatory comment from food poisoning lawyer Bill Marler, in which he suggested support for raw milk sales from the farm. And I noticed this concluding sentence I had skimmed over before: “I do know that there are people so in need of a raw milk fix that they believe a few sick or dead people is just a reality they are willing to live with. I am not.”
It’s one thing to intellectually disagree with others, but when you decide your opponents are morally bankrupt, finding common ground becomes much more challenging. To suggest that raw milk drinkers value human life less than your side is, shall we say, not one of the suggestions you’ll find in Dale Carnegie’s classic How to Win Friends and Influence People.
50-100 reported illnesses per year- out of over more than 30,000 raw milk consumers in CA alone; in what way does this make a "public health hazard"?
I do know that there are people so in need of a raw milk fix that they believe a few sick or dead people is just a reality they are willing to live with. I am not."
Does he feel the same about vaccinations? They kill/injure "a few" each year, I don’t recall seeing anything about him suing about that. Guess he is willing to live with that.
David….there is moral corruption at the highest levels…no doubt or any denial of it. You saw it happen at the NCIMS conference when the FDA refused to listen to my presentation on raw milk and refused to take delivery of inches thick of science and data on Raw Milk.
I have largely given up on the FDA….my dedication is to the grass roots the consumers and the people. When the tipping point is reached and the FDA is forced to "come to Jesus" and listen to the their scientists at NIH and hear the breaking news on the Human Bionome project…they will kiss our backsides and resign in embarrassment.
Mark
RAW MILK IS DANGER TO PUBLIC by Wally Bernard
The author is professor emeritus with the University of Georgia’s College of Journalism and Mass Communication.
If this professor is a teacher of journalism is it any wonder that the MSM REEKS with nothing but propaganda and inane news stories?
The SYSTEM is morally bankrupt. A new record 12% of our fellow Americans [including children] are on food stamps while this SYSTEM discourages and destroys small raw dairy farmers producing a healthy product. What s wrong with this picture?
when engauged in an discussion and a impass is reached…simply remove reason from the discussion to forward your opinion…
So..when we explain to those new to real food or raw milk it makes sense…
explain the laws against and rules against it..simple reason is lost.
States muddy the water to prevent a clear choice.. they don’t have to prove anything just plant doubt..remove reason from the argument.
So we are passioniate and show reason in our judgement.. but fight continually those who are practiced at removing it from the discussion….it infuriates us so we use more reason..the State simply moves farther away from the topic at hand…creating those blank looks from those we are trying to inform…
More to the point and easier to explain is to do the same..remove the discussion of food from very good reasons and the benifits applied..to shedding light on the fact that the State is protecting market share in lue of food safety.
Reason then becomes apparent without creating the ability to have opposing input remove it from you.
Tim
For Sylvia, its a **double standard**.
For Mark, its **moral bankruptcy**.
For Tim, its **muddy-ing propaganda tactics**.
These all begin with greed for Money. FOLLOW THE MONEY !!.
Its simple. Regarding 19th century germ theory to explain illness, professionals and many others have been duped by schooling and the media. Most of the vocal critics of real milk, as well as those who can influence its availability, have a money interest in clinging to this old-think. Those who disparage believers in Real Milk are a cadre of fairly visible peopleand for most of them, some of their paycheck depends on strongly denigrating real milk.
David, Im surprised that you didnt bring Follow The Money into the Bioneer discussion in a big way. This is not really a complex issue. Money is what drives the opposition to real milk. Most everything else is just tactics.
Do you have plans to be in Chicago early in December?
If Bill Marler wanted to prevent the most deaths – if that were his true desire – he would be practicing a different kind of law. I do not believe his specialty of food safety, nor his snarky comments have anything to do with the reality of saving lives at all. I, by occupation, am involved in saving lives every day I go to work. I just finished my 3rd 2-year recert in Advanced Cardiac Life Support. He also has no farm. Does he even have a garden? How does a person who grows nor produces no food themselves make a career going after people who produce food – live with themselves? I am a person who has hands dirty in both saving lives and making my own food. I fail to see how raising my own milk has anything to do with other peoples’ deaths. I DO know what it has to do with Marler’s career, however. NOTHING. IN my care to make sure of that, his intentions take on a limelight like no other. And that is NOT saving lives.
What was the word you used that got you started drinking raw milk, David? Not wanting to be a "hippocrite?" Some people would rather be snarky and sharky than to be so morally founded. I can shoot sitting ducks too and find a way to make it look like I’m doing it for a good cause. But I don’t.
Your personal attacks are rude and unproductive. It is great that you love your job and take pride in it. But to imply your work is superior to someone else’s – that you probably have never even met – is sinking to a low that I thought you were better than.
I just finished reading your marvel…."The Raw Milk Revolution"
I enjoyed every word of it….what an great piece of accounting for what has happened to us all accross America, from farmer to consumer.
My take away from it all…this is money, germ dogma and protectionist politics in its highest form. Raw Milk Dairymen listen to the consumers…..the FDA and big dairy processors listen to themselves and their greedy needs. That is the difference.
My future plans….try my best to elimate any negative raw milk targets for the CDFA or FDA to shoot at. Build the markets to the tipping point by educating the consumers of the reality of illness prevention through whole food and raw milk. Work like crazy to get major studies done to prove what we know is true. This is on the way right now.
Lastly, ignor the distractions of the FDA and others that try like hell to suck the resources and life blood from this grass roots movement.
Great book…and thank you for speaking the truth to power.
Mark
No plans for Chicago in December – what’s cookin?
I agree about following the money. Most people who drink raw milk testify to fewer colds, allergies, arthritis – our doctor bills have gone down at least 90% How much money would they lose? $400 x 300,000,000? Gee I’d fight too, except for the moral issues involved.
Because – there are moral issues involved. It’s the doublespeak I dislike. What’s baffling is the complete avoidance of market demand for raw milk, the environmental benefits of small dairy farms, halting global warming, reducing federal deficit, improving chronic disease, and allowing freedom to take responsibility for one’s health. How much money would Americans save?
Lykke,
Sylvia’s post was on topic – David Gumpert posed the question which side of the debate most values human life? Her life is about healing and helping people. Marler’s vocation destroys people’s businesses and lives, and pretends to wipe out bacteria at the same time ( lol) …
David says this is a long debate, but if we could quantify the health benefits I think it would be a short debate.
What scares me is what would happen if they agreed with us. We’ll have to hire regulators to keep you in line, impose taxes and fines to pay for us, send inspectors to label it….
Let’s be careful what we wish for, and craft our laws carefully.
-Blair
Marler has stated that people who enjoy raw milk can live with the reality of a few illnesses and deaths. Back at you. So can he. That was my point. It has nothing to do with superiority of my job over others. Twist the argument if you like, but given your past posts, I don’t think anyone reading this, except possibly newbies, will buy this diversion from the argument that I don’t think he cares an iota more about the lives of others than the next person
He profits from deaths and illness, and holds those who provide food accountable, to a degree that has the potential to compromise the food supply, without much if any concern for the greater consequences of those actions.
Sad how much you and others despise the handful of food safety people willing to discuss the issue, and not approach raw milk by use of bans, raids, etc.
Who loves kids more is a false premise, designed to do nothing more than provoke visceral responses. The ensuing "discussion" spreads more heat than light.
The vast majority of participants in this blog are above this, and I think we simply need to step back and realize what’s happening, then get on to better things. David’s post was principally a reflection on how outsiders tend to view both sides of the discussion. If those outsiders were to peek into the comments following his post, they might scratch their heads at how the BM comment, made in passing, ignited things. I guess, they would then at least understand the deep-flowing currents of division. That division is the real issue.
I find this amazing. The govt approves and encourages people to take drugs/medications, eat the chemically poisoned foods all of which kill many more than 15 per year.
Of course the small family fishermen won’t be able to afford the supposed changes that may be enforced upon them and they’ll be out of business.
Do they care? It sure doesn’t appear so. A plate of lip service along with a side of propaganda.
I don’t agree with that sort of argument and wouldn’t frame the argument that way at all. We should have individual choice, plain and simple. If we can all make an informed choice (including about our children), then good for us.
I’m still working on my raw milk Halloween costume. Expect an email from me later this week if you’ve signed up at the raw milk white papers website. I’m not sure it’s the scariest thing happening this week since I’ve been exploring a road on my property than no human has walked in 70 years. You can follow that on Twitter (amgrose).
Last week the California OV dairymen gathered to discuss their issues. One of the issues was how to deal with some of their members selling Raw Milk on the side. It seems that neighbors have been visiting their friendly OV dairymen and begging for more raw milk. Now OV is coming down with a new policy on selling or giving away raw milk. Not sure what it will be but OV does not like losing its milk to neighbors and wants this to stop.
Very interesting….
Mark
Ex OV Dairymen from 2002.
After a bit of back and forth with Eric, I read this from his last comment on the subject:
"Perhaps you have stronger guts than those present, many of us parents with children, but we saw nothing to be gained by physically disobeying their direct commands and threats. It was all documented, we can move forward with that, and that was enough for us for that day."
I almost responded, with heat, but then decided to sit with Eric’s reply for a bit before answering. Then I read this post, and the title, "Which Side in the Raw Milk Debate Most Values Human Life…?"
The answer to the question posed in this post’s title, and my answer to Eric’s comment, are inextricably intertwined.
Eric, I too have children…not small children but I do have kids…two boys ages 14 and 19 who, through the goodness and love of God, are strong and healthy. I wish that for all parents. However, I also wish something else for all parents and their kids.
I wish for them to grow up in a country that still follows the beliefs of our founding fathers…a belief in personal responsibility, or taking responsibility for one’s own decisions and actions, rather than growing up relying on the nanny state to protect them, to make their decisions…yes, even nutritional decisions…for them. I want them to grow up in a country where we have freedom…even freedom to fail…because that freedom to fail door is also the freedom to succeed door…even to succeed in making good nutritional decisions. I want them to understand the thoughts behind Thomas Jefferson’s words, "A man willing to sacrifice a bit of liberty for security will have neither." (paraphased).
I’ll take the freedom to drink whatever milk I choose, or eat whatever foods I wish, over the security of the nanny state’s protection any day of the week.
That also answers the question posed by the title of this post. When asking who has the most moral authority in this discussion, simply look at who gains what.
The only thing raw milk advocates get out of winning this war is the right to make their own nutritional choices. That’s it. No big money payoff. No celebrity headlines. No 15 minutes of fame. We just get to choose what we eat. That’s all.
Look at the other side. Look at big agri. Do you really think the CEO of Dean Foods gives a damn if your kid get’s sick off bad milk he produces…or that a raw dairyman produces? No. If it’s his milk, his insurance company will just write a check to the parents, perhaps pick up a few medical bills, and count it as the cost of doing business. If it’s a raw dairyman’s milk Dean Foods just chuckles…another small dairyman likely out of business, another news story to scare the sheep…er…people back to the nanny state approved stuff, and more fodder for the FDA and…. lawyers (sorry Gary, Pete, and Steve) like Bill Marler.
While I’ve brought up lawyers, do you think [lawyers] like Marler give a damn about your kids health? Do you think he cares if your kid gets sick from some food item?
Nope. He’s in it for the money and ONLY for the money. Want a little evidence of that? Run over to his blog and ask him why, if he is so concerned about food safety in public health he spends so much time on things that make few people sick, and ignores other types of food that make vastly more people sick than raw milk.
According to the CDC you are most likely to suffer a food related illness by eating…deli meat. Not raw milk, not tomatoes/peppers/lettuce (all government approved by the way) like last year…deli meat. Ask Marler why he hasn’t sued a deli meat company lately.
"Their" side wants control and power…and the money that comes with it. Our side just wants the freedom to make our own nutritional choices for us and our families.
I know which side has the moral authority backing them up.
The solution is simple. Not easy, but simple. Demand…not ask, demand…our rights, among them the right to make our own nutritional choices,and be willing to do whatever it takes to secure them.
Those who have read my words on this before will roll their eyes, because I’m beating a dead horse here, but the simple fact is we’ll NEVER beat them with logical arguments regarding health…they have too much to lose. For every study we have, they’ll have one to contradict ours. For every statistic we show, they’ll have an excuse. Every time we show someone with bettered health throuigh personal nutrition choices they’ll trot out someone who got a tummyache because they ate something not nanny state approved.
The only way we will ever beat them is by standing up for, demanding, fighting for, being willing to suffer a bit protecting, our rights.
Are there no Nathan Hales left?
Bob Hayles
http://www.juicymaters,com
[Note from David Gumpert: I edited out some personally offensive language in this comment used to to describe another individual. No matter how strong the disagreements might be over certain issues, I request that commenters refrain from name-calling, and stick to the issues.]
Boy, did I ever mangle my dates. I had in mind the Wise Traditions conference. My wife would like to meet you – if you were going to be there.
Lykke,
Mine costs a little over $20 per gallon – – but I get lots more cream. This is the cheapest health insurance I could find. No claims (i.e. doctor visits) for over nine years.
http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/143572/got_raw_milk_think_twice_before_you_drink_it
Got Raw Milk? Think Twice Before You Drink It. by Jill Richardson
"Individuals such as Mark McAfee owner of the largest raw dairy in America have the ability to single-handedly alter the debate for the worse" { shame on you Mark] LOL
Again I ask the question are there any real journalist left in America or are they all employed by Orwells imaginary [?] propaganda ‘Truth Agency’???
On October 21st President Obama and Congress approved a $350 million pay-out for commercial dairy farmers, who are weathering one of the worst milk price fall-outs in recent history. The bulk of the $4/gallon retail price for pasteurized milk goes to the milk processors and grocery chains, while conventional dairy farmers don’t realize enough to cover their costs of production.
While it’s difficult to compute a cost per gallon for the milk I obtain through my herdshare, it’s somewhere in the $6 per gallon range when you factor in all the externalities. Unlike conventional pasteurized milk, probably about ninety percent of that figure goes straight to my farmer’s bottom line. Unlike struggling and failing conventional confinement dairies, my farmer’s grass-fed dairy is very profitable, provides a comfortable living for his family and supplies hundreds of people in my area with extremely nutritious and high-quality foods.
And as David Kendall pointed out, my family’s health care costs are very minimal so I’m more than happy to pay my farmer a premium price for the food he produces. My employer is now offering a lower-cost PPO insurance plan, and after running the numbers I determined that I’ll save several thousand dollars a year in reduced premiums in comparison to the more expensive PPO+ plan. We need no regular prescription medication, and even with two small children we see doctors so infrequently that the higher co-pays and percentages under the PPO plan are more than covered by the cheaper monthly premiums. Our good health and development is directly attributable to our food choices – traditional foods on which people have thrived for thousands of years instead of the cheap, devitalized and processed foods introduced within the past fifty to seventy-five years.
One gallon at $8.00 worth of fresh whole 4.5% milk can be made into 9 gallons of 1/2% pasteurized milk at$3.00 per gallon.That’s $27.00 from the consumer for a profit of $19.00 for the middleman.But that isn’t enough for the middleman.They have expenses to cover like an ad campaign to convince everyone that lowfat milk is healthier than whole milk.Then there is all of those bribes paid to politicians to allow the consolidation of dairy processing so that a few big processors can dictate prices to the farmer.Now,the farmer gets $1.00 of that $27.00 that the consumer pays for the nutritionally deficient,watered down crap that passes for milk.Does it surprise anyone that farmers and consumers have joined forces to eliminate the man in the middle?
http://www.commonsnews.org/test3/story.php?articleno=986&page=1
He sells his product in retail locations like Whole Foods (within California only), and he outsources some of his production as his demand outstrips his supply. However that means that he does not have direct control over all of the dairy products sold under his label, and it also means that his customers have relatively little information about where their raw dairy products come from.
Now the way this information is presented, it sounds like Mark is currently outsourcing for some of his products. Now Im confused. Earlier this month I asked Mark this question:
Over this past year, have you outsourced raw milk to meet the demand of selling your raw milk products? Have any of your raw milk products been packaged with the OPDC label, but created from outsourced raw milk? The products Im referring to are butter, cream, qephor, & cheese; not fluid raw milk.
The same question goes for colostrum also. Over this past year, have you outsourced colostrum and bottled it with the OPDC label?
This was Marks response:
I think I have answered this question several times and in several places. But….no problem I will answer it again.
In California all Grade A Raw Market milk must come from TB tested and CDFA approved cows. We do not outsource raw milk to make our Grade A products. Yes…in 2006 we did buy some colostrum (not a grade A product but rather a DHS dietary supplement) from other organic dairies to meet our demand. Yes…in the past we have bought some raw milk from other grass fed raw milk dairies to make some of our truly raw cheddar cheese ( which is aged for 60 days and allowed to be sold across state lines by the FDA and not a Grade A product either ). At present ( and for quite some time ) OPDC only makes our products from our own raw milk. This is what I have said in the past and the story is still the same.
Ive become quite interested in the topic of OPDC outsourcing practices, so I revisited Amanda Roses blog and reread her Elephant in the Raw Milk Room article.
http://www.rebuild-from-depression.com/blog/2008/04/the_elephant_in_the_raw_milk_r.html
I was quite surprised at the note that was added September 27, 2009. Notice the year.2009. This is what it states:
[Note added September 27, 2009:
About six months before I wrote this entry in April of 2008, when I was working on the AB1735 campaign for raw milk in California, I urged Mark McAfee at Organic Pastures to make his outsourcing public by including a page on his website with the products that are made from outside dairies and with information about those dairies. I offered to write the content for him. Over the following months, our conversation continued. While I did not tell him in advance that I would be posting this particular piece, we had a six-month-long discussion of the topic.
Mark does state in the comments here that he no longer outsources, but I did confirm from him in June of 2009 that OPDC does continue to bring in outside product for butter. He purchases milk from a milk broker who brokers milk intended for pasteurization. Under California law, it is illegal for a raw milk dairy to bottle milk (whole and skim) and cream that was intended for pasteurization. There is no such reference in the law to butter, cheese, or colostrum-related products.]
It is clear that in the past, Mark McAfee has outsourced for colostrum, butter and to make cheese and packaged it with the OPDC label. Based on the information above, it is still unclear if Mark continues the practice of outsourcing. So Im going to ask Mark McAfee one more time about the outsourcing issue. Mark, are you currently or have you anytime in the year of 2009 outsourced for any of your raw milk products or colostrum?
Mary McGonigle-Martin
From a raw milk consumer’s perspective I don’t have any problems with water or pathogen testing requirements, however I am a little disturbed to hear that "farmers must keep daily transaction records." Granted that I don’t know exactly what that means and I don’t live in Vermont so it doesn’t affect me personally, but it sounds to me that farmers there are being required to track who buys what, how much and when. I’d be very interested in knowing exactly what a "transaction record" entails – buyer’s name, address and home phone number? Are buyers required to show a valid form of identification to verify their identity?
My guess is that the Vermont department of Health insisted on such record-keeping in order to track the <sarcasm>rampant Campylobacter and Listeria outbreaks that are sure to result from widespread on-site raw milk sales, and to alert consumers when the inevitable product recalls ensue.</sarcasm> However, what other legally sold "potentially hazardous" food has such stringent requirement? Just yesterday I heard a story on NPR indicating that around fifteen people a year die in this country from eating raw oysters, yet no state department of Health is up in arms about that.
This kind of consumer tracking is most likely a small price to pay for expanded on-site raw milk sales in Vermont, but I worry that it sets a dangerous precedent and could be used as an avenue to suppress or discourage such activity in the future. How would you feel if you knew that a state government agency could have access to your food purchases and retail history?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! If you believe that all raw milk dairymen (and women, like myself) charge $16, you need to do more research… or else you’re just parroting the party line. When I started selling raw goat milk some ten years ago, I was lucky to get $3/gallon when grocery store dead milk was selling for $2. Problem was, I lost money at $3/gallon.
A year later, I explained that to my customers and raised the price to $4… and STILL lost money on each gallon. Why? because I feed kelp meal, quality minerals and my own special grain mix that’s not 90% corn and 10% soy (in fact, has no soy at all) and quality alfalfa hay, which ain’t cheap.
So I raised the price again two years later to $5.50. Not only did no one complain, they eagerly paid… in fact, I got more customers. Problem was, I was by now still only barely breaking even… I wasn’t even getting paid for my labor: two hours morning and night, hand-milking goats, and that’s just time spent milking, never mind the other work.
So over the next several years I raised the price to $7. Not one customer has said a peep in complaint. They all come to the farm to pick up their milk, they all know how hard I work here, they all see the quality feed I give my animals. Kelp meal costs $45 for 50 lbs, by the way… I have to sell seven gallons to pay for one bag, but I buy it because it has made a huge difference in my livestock’s health.
My price has remained at $7/gallon, even though the price of grain and hay went up due to gas prices and that stupid ethanol program–because I know the poor economy in this very rural area will not support more increases. I’ve already had some people drop out and others reluctantly hint that if my price goes up they’d have to stop buying.
And I’m greedy?? For charging twice the grocery store dead milk cost with its artificial hormones, pollution and fake Vitamins A&D? At $7/gallon, I don’t even get paid, really…. I make around $2 an hour. Whoooo!! Greedy me! Yeah, let’s follow MY money. hahahahaa!!!
By the way, you are actually paying below-production cost for grocery store milk because the dairy industry is screwing over their smaller dairymen, who are losing money with each gallon…. they’re going bankrupt all the time, even with the subsidies they get; most have to work outside jobs; and more factory farms are taking up the slack because that’s the only way they can survive, which means even more crappy milk being made, more pollution and sick cows.
If dairymen actually were allowed to get a fair price for their milk and labor, instead of being forced to accept what the dairy industry says they can get, store milk prices would go up astronomically, to more like $7-9 a gallon. Problem is, because America has had the cheapest food prices on the planet for decades, we actually feel we have the RIGHT to those very low food prices found nowhere else on Earth. Unfortunately, we’re also paying for those extremely low subsidized prices with our health by eating those substandard foods, and with our taxes.
First corollary: Nothing’s free.
Second corollary: Quality ANYTHING always costs more than cheap stuff.
So if it costs more to produce quality raw milk, because of more expensive feed and more backbreaking labor and time, than mass-production factory milk, why shouldn’t raw dairy people charge whatever they feel their product is worth? Why shouldn’t they follow the Standard American Marketing philosophy of "Set the price at whatever the market will bear…. if you’re too high, people will definitely let you know!" LOL
Anyway, I can only wish I could get even $9/gallon, which is probably the more typical raw milk cost, not $16.
Jenny
Your comment about my AVMA talk is entirely inaccurate, and deeply offensive.
You say:
"David presented outbreak statistics and said something like, ‘See, illnesses are rare, let people have their milk. So a few kids get really sick, is that really worth all the regulation?.’ It definitely sounded like an argument that the global good of raw milk far outweighs the few Chris Martins. Mary McG was sitting two seats down; I bristled at the comment."
I said nothing of the sort, and it’s unfortunate you heard something else, as well as saw something else in my presentation.
http://wifss.ucdavis.edu/pdf/AVMA_davidgumpert.pdf
(And while there were a number of criticisms of my talk concerning data and public health policy, no one at the AVMA conference made the observation you are making on this blog to my face, including you or Mary McGonigle-Martin or anyone else. If you had, I would have told you what I’m saying here.) I asked in my presentation whether there was a public health crisis in the statistics on illness, and answered that Q by saying there wasn’t. In other words, there wasn’t a more serious problem with illnesses for raw milk than for a number of other foods that have sickened small children. I said the real problem was a political problem, that the illnesses of children were being used for political purposes. I never trivialized the illnesses of Chris Martin and Melissa Herzog, and I find your suggestion that I did disgusting. You need to be very careful before making accusations of that sort.
David
http://www.meatingplace.com/MembersOnly/webNews/details.aspx?item=14168
"In a news release, the groups cited USDA data showing FSA direct and guaranteed loans for new hog and poultry building construction for fiscal years 2008 and 2009 totaled $264,466,341. At the same time, USDA has purchased $55 million and $42 million worth of surplus pork and poultry, respectively, in an effort to provide relief to these livestock markets, stressed by depressed prices.
"This cycle of promoting the expansion of corporate livestock production with taxpayer money, then bailing out the industry because of overproduction with taxpayer money is an irresponsible practice and must come to an end," said Rhonda Perry, a Howard County, Mo., livestock and grain farmer and program director of the Missouri Rural Crisis Center. "You can’t justify loans for new operations and more livestock when the current hog farmers are barely treading water or are going out of business altogether."
Lykke,you asked about Vermont; and who loses -I think the farmers lose – the state is restricting their production & income to 40 gallons/day – would that happen to any other industry?
The article you cited says
"Prior to the raw milk bill, farmers used the milk privately and sold the product informally, with no oversight. Legislators insisted on recordkeeping, more testing of the milk, and more oversight all steps in the law designed to protect consumers…."
…and hobble producers.
-Blair
I’m sorry, but that is the way it sounded. I suppose I should have asked you a follow-up question at the time.
Amanda
Just two other things for the record regarding the AVMA session:
1. You say, "I don’t think Marler was talking about the raw milk community in general with that quote, I think he was referring to David’s talk in Seattle…" As you may remember, Marler wasn’t in attendance at my talk, which was in the morning. He only arrived in the early afternoon, to give his talk, and then stayed on afterwards. So he knows nothing of what I said in my talk, except what others might have told him, or from viewing my presentation slides.
2. I asked Mary McGonigle-Martin immediately after my talk if she had been okay with my referring to Chris and using Chris’ photo in my presentation, and she told me she was fine with it, had no problems.
Yes, you should have asked a followup question if you thought I said something that made you "bristle." Not provide an inaccurate and totally misleading quote from it nearly four months after the fact.
David
Sorry if I misheard your talk.
Amen! miguel is on a roll.
The low cost of big-ag food is indeed phony, and the subsidies are just the tip of the iceberg. By far the largest hidden costs are externalities—actual costs that are paid, but not directly in the price of the food. I’m speaking of the financial and human costs of diseases that result from chronic, sub-clinical (by today’s medical standards) low immune function, diabetes, asthma, obesity, and God only knows what else that results from exposure to pesticides, herbicides, hormones, and artificial fertilizers, inadequate vitamin and nutrient content, and the generally poor nutrition available embedded in food grown on and in dead soils.
That $4.00 gallon of milk simply isn’t.
So, if the parts about recording customers and limiting the amount sold were removed from the regulation, you’d otherwise see the Vermont approach as a win:win?
Food and environment are the key to healthy lives. Like most people, if I can afford something I like, I’ll pay the price. Why waste money on "cheap, devitalized and processed foods" that will only make you ill?
http://www.ajph.org/cgi/reprint/98/5/939
Mortality from the flu declined long before vaccines. Could it be from better knowledge of nutrition, sanitary conditions, etc.?
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/RiskandSafety.html
deaths:
diseases of the heart: 1900/04 153 per100000 2003 235/100000
diabetes 1900/04 12/100000 2003 25/100000
flu 1900/04 22/100000 2003 0.1/100000
measles 1900/04 10/100000 2003 0/100000
The 1st vaccine for measles in the US was 1963, long after it declined in the general population. The cdc et al lie about their own numbers. Indeed, follow the money. Heart disease has increased as has diabetes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_vaccines
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/measles/faqs-dis-vac-risks.htm
Whole Foods was selling raw milk for $16 gallon when I went into their store.
Hey, Gwen, do you have those personal attacks organized yet from your clip and paste? Doubt it, because they don’t exist. What do you think about the Vermont regs? Win or Lose?
If you dump the middlemen you pay less. OP sells raw milk $5 per 1/2 gal.
"Hey, Gwen, do you have those personal attacks organized yet from your clip and paste? "
Is there a reason to continue this childish behavior? Can you not be adult and just drop it?
Surely you know that Whole Foods is AKA "Whole Paycheck"?
Nearly ALL the food in WF is way overpriced… you cannot generalize WF’s raw milk price with those across the nation. Most people cannot afford that extremely high price, and most raw milk dairymen know that.
All the ones I know follow the standard marketing rules for pricing products: "You’ll sell more, and make more, if the price is reasonable." Only the very rich can afford $16/gallon. However, the average health-conscious shopper can and will pay $6-10 a gallon.
To see reasonable prices, you have to cut out the middleman. This is true of ANY food, by the way: Buy your meat, eggs and vegetables from the farmers, not Walmart. And certainly NOT from Whole Foods!!
You do have to make an effort to reach us; if you’re not willing to do that, then you have to pay the price for middlemen to do it for you…… and not complain.
Jenny
"So, if the parts about recording customers and limiting the amount sold were removed from the regulation, you’d otherwise see the Vermont approach as a win:win?"
Lykke,
Short answer is "maybe". Depends on how much control and intervention is involved. If the state would just pay for education, milk safety & herd health tests, and leave it to the farmers & consumers to self-monitor and self-regulate their process, I’d be content.
But I’ve become distrustful of government when it comes to our food supply, and especially when it comes to raw milk. Would they impose a 10-coliform CFU/ml limit, or let the farmers decide what the tests and standards should be? Would they restrict yogurt, butter & cheese-making?
The USDA’s marketing policies and massive bureaucracy certainly have not eliminated food-borne illness (though I admit they must be doing something right with all that factory-farm-produced food!). What makes them think they could do a better job than the farmer, who knows his/her consumers (and soil, and animals) personally? That’s the issue here – why do they need to control small farms?
I think it’s a good idea to have contact info of consenting customers in case you need to notify them of milk shortages, illness, etc. I see no reason why the government should have that contact info.
There’s no reason for government regulation when the milk is distributed from small farms. Retail sales may be different; too many middlemen spoil the milk?
I like the farm-to-consumer herd share relationship, for many reasons. I get to choose my source; and choose from other farm-fresh products when available, learn about my community and give & get feedback about our transactions. They are forgiving about payments and ask me what kind of jars I like. A retail store distances the consumer from the producer, and has one-size-fits all policies that are frustrating, dehumanizing, and literally sickening.
(Just yesterday I heard a joyful story from a raw dairy producer, about twin baby boys who were born addicted to heroin and failed to thrive. The grandmother took custody of the twins and after some months, was able to feed them raw milk. They are ‘rosy-cheeked, robust and gaining weight’ now. If you were a producer milking for baby heroin addicts, you’d take special care with your milk. The average food producer? Clueless about his community…and not sure he’d even care if he knew…"not his job".)
If we had a government that was truly ‘for the people’, I’d appreciate their help. But right now, to quote an FTCLDF bumper sticker:
"Keep the government out of my kitchen!"
-Blair
I was too busy writing a review on Amazon.com for this awesome book. AND, Ohio’s elections are coming up Tuesday, and I’m too busy trying to do stuff here in my own state, like Grange and Ohio Farm Bureau, and educating people about Issue’s 2 and 3. Issue 2 would create an Ohio Livestock Care Standards Board, with representatives from all points of view. Issue 3 is a Gaming Industry issue, which indirectly could affect our farm’s future, thanks to those mob people who supposedly, like some of your past posts, don’t exist.
And I’m also on a 5 day stretch of 12-hour nights, so don’t expect to hear much response from me anytime soon.
Point taken. It is my opinion that we should (and will) challenge the unsubstantiated accusations you, WAPF, and their chapter leaders bring against your supposed opponents. Thanks.