Tim WightmanHere’s the message I get from Tim Wightman’s comment following my criticism of Organic Valley Family of Farms: Don’t be so quick to criticize this large farm co-op. There are some delicate political and economic issues involved here. Many dairy farmers have a big stake in the conventional co-op/processor distribution sytem, and at Organic Valley, farmers are being pinched financially because of a decline in consumption of pasteurized organic milk…and are resentful because some of their farmer brothers are making up for the financial challenge by selling raw milk. Besides, regulators and processors regularly communicate about routine issues, and may say a few things that sound conspiratorial. Cut us some slack.
It’s an intriguing message, coming as it does from a founder of the Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund, and I can appreciate that there are business sensitivities. I actually think some of these sensitivities signify quite important issues, though. (By the way, if this is just a little internal misunderstanding, you might think that someone from Organic Valley might have at least had the courtesy to answer my email or phone call–there’s been only silence.)
I say all this while acknowledging that I don’t necessarily have special insights into farm economics and pscychology, having spent practically my entire life in the city, with little or no contact with farmers until the last three years.
But I’d like to throw something out that may shed light on what’s really happening here. I think many Wisconsin dairy farmers, indeed, dairy farmers everywhere, are more upset about the raw milk controversy than has been generally appreciated. I remember when the Ohio Department of Agriculture began cracking down on raw dairy producers back in 2006, being told by regulators there that some of the cases the agency was pursuing originated with complaints by conventional dairy farmers.
I’ve heard similar rumblings in other states–that it’s dairy farmers who are concerned because some of their brethren are challenging regulatory limitations on raw milk…and earning nice money in the process.
Now, I think it’s safe to say many of these upset dairy farmers are being urged on by processors, who have absolutely nothing to gain and lots to lose when dairy farmers transition to raw milk.
There’s a larger issue involved, though–a business issue–which has to do with the different mentalities involved when you’re doing business as part of a government-business cartel and doing business in the real marketplace. Conventional dairy farmers don’t experience all opportunities afforded by our capitalist system because they are dealing in a highly controlled marketplace, a marketplace where prices are fixed by a few processors with government approval, and those prices are too low for the suppliers to make a regular profit.
There are few incentives for doing a great job because pasteurization levels the quality playing field. There’s little economic opportunity. It’s very difficult to be anything other than a commodity. In fact, over the long term, the deck is stacked against you, much as it would be if you lived in a company town.
It’s much different if you are in a market economy, out there selling directly to consumers, or via retail establishments. All you have to do is observe many Amish dairy farmers, or Mark McAfee of Organic Pastures, who aggressively sell a wide variety of products, to appreciate the demands of the real economy.
So when we talk about conventional vs raw milk, we’re not just talking two different supply sources, we’re talking two entirely different business models.
Organic Valley may be an upstanding organization much of the time, but at its heart, it’s a processor that is part of a government-industry dairy cartel. Tim Wightman strongly suggests in his comment that we’ll see a much more positive side of Organic Valley before long. Certainly it could be a force to help dairies diversify by providing outlets for their raw milk. That would require innovative thinking within an industry where there’s little room for competition, for segmentation, for niche marketing, for growth.
Think back to the old Soviet style farm collectives, and you won’t be that far off in thinking about the dairy co-ops. Some farmers who value that way of doing business are resentful of the Scott Trautmans of the world, who are out there hustling and seeking out new opportunities. The controversy over our right to access raw milk happens to be the trigger for bringing out into the open the farmer-on-farmer divisions.
Yes, they do. And why is that? Could it be because the food system infrastructure built by processors and supported by government effectively forces dairy farmers to either go along or risk financial death? Because the now ubiquitous notion that processed commodities and food are the same thing has relieved us of misgivings about transforming good farmland (especially farmland within reasonable distance to population centers) into residential and commercial centers? Because our medical system and its preference for disease management over disease prevention has made us forget what health is, and blinded us to the fact that food can be either medicine or poison? Because a culture that values short-term gain over long-term sustainability has disconnected us from the reality that we are dependent on a clean planet and healthy, living soil for our very lives? Because an enforced nanny state tempts us to turn to government bureaucracies before loving families, friends, and neighbors? Because an expanding ethos of centralized government and business systems has desensitized us to the crime of substituting government-bestowed legal rights for natural human rights? Because any attempt to break from the going model is met with a fighting army of power-hungry legislators, money-hungry businessmen, nay-saying regulators, code-enforcers, and even police?
Indeed the highly controlled marketplace David speaks of is deep and powerful. Perhaps enough so to prevent that entirely different business model (you might call it the human or constitutional model) from ever regaining its footing.
Food, that most basic of all biological needs, may very well be the trigger to ignite the healing spark of loving humanity latent in us all, and turn the mess upside down. Tomorrow at Thanksgiving I will be thanking God for implanting that spark in us all.
http://www.alternet.org/food/144173/don%27t_be_scared_of_food%3A_are_we_being_needlessly_hysterical_about_food_safety?page=entire
Don’t Be Scared of Food: Are We Being Needlessly Hysterical About Food Safety?
by DAVID GUMPERT
Great article David.
Dave M., your words couldnt hit the mind and heart any more succinctly as my family and I took the exit from Highway 99 out the 10 miles to Marks farm. We past many acres of grapes which were beautiful; but, we drove past a typical dairy farm of today where many cows were congregated under a long roofed building without a blade of green grass anywhere to be seen around them. Then a few miles past that we drove onto the McAfees farm and many cows were grazing on large green pastures. What a contrastnot to mention the contrast in end products from these two very different agricultural paradigms. Now I have been told time and again that sustainable organics cant feed the population of CA, leave alone the USA. And this is true as long as strip malls and seas of little boxes (housing developments) cover the landscape up and down this great valley. TPTB see development one way, and our raw milk revolution would definitely step on some powerful toes if Americans collectively started to demand healthier fare, and took back responsibility for their own health. If we can grow enough grapes for eating and wine right here in CA for our country then the farmers on US soil could feed us healthier dairy also.
Sometimes our national nutritional status is depressing to think about; nevertheless, this Thanksgiving I am thankful for not only OPDC and Claravale, but for the farmers near me that supply many nutrient dense whole foods including goat milk, meat, and vegetables. Yes, we are being fed almost exclusively by local and regional farmers. With just a little planning it isnt inconvenient and far healthier. In fact, a typical supermarket is becoming to look more and more alien when were in one from time to time. I am also thankful for the authors of the many books I have read on agriculture, soil, grass, ect., from ACRES USA, Mother Earth magazine, and the WAPF. And last, but not least, I am thankful for my copy of The Raw Milk Revolution which was waiting in my mailbox for me Monday evening coming home from our OPDC visit! Thank You David G.! We havent finished it yet, but so far it is excellent reading.
Happy Thanks Giving to ALL here on Mr. Gumperts blog! Alyssa
NOT SO says author Marti Oakley at FARM WARS
http://farmwars.info/?p=1991#more-1991
Wisconsin:Heroes Will Just Set Things Back
The bill will run small producers out of business and allow Organic Valley to establish a full monopoly.
HMMM It is becoming more and more difficult these days to know who to trust and what to believe it would seem we must question everyones motives. And that is a very sad state of affairs.
As for Organic Valley – the headline in the NODPA (Northeast Organic Dairy Producers Assoc.) newsletter states, "Organic Valley takes over procurement for Stonyfield milk brand". Cartel? Let’s not forget, no matter how slick the marketing, no matter how it tugs on your heartstrings ("but it’s for family farmers!"), a CORPORATION is still a CORPORATION, and Organic Valley is a corporation (albeit with a different ownership structure than an S or C Corp.). Strategic alliances, monopolization and squashing the competition is what corporations do.
http://www.wicfa.org/wicfa_opposition_to_LRB3242-3.html
http://wicfa.org/
Here at the McAfee Clan we are all truly blessed with access to good whole food, a new grandson born Nov 24th ( Daniel Lapsley McAfee…he is the 5th First son with the clan name Lapsley and makes me a grandpa) and loving friends and family today. I dream and work for a for a future when all Americans can choose the same if they wish. Not so today…..at least not easily.
I wrote a formal letter to George Siemon ( CEO at CROPP and Organic Valley ) years ago. In that letter I spelled out a possible and highly workable proposal to provide local raw milk to areas that allow raw milk to be sold. I explained the crushing economic and nutritional relaities of lactose intolerance and how pastuerization creates commodity markets. How processing destroys the nutrients and probiotic living qualites of RAW MILK. I explained that Rodale stated once that producing organic raw milk and then pastuerizing it was not organic. I shared details of the OPDC experience and how OV could dominate the national organic raw milk market.
The steps I suggested included having OV do what they do best…provide branding and distribution and doing the billing and collections. Let the farmer do what they do best….high quality raw milk bottled at his micro creamery. This product would be tested using OV lab technology to assure quality ( there are instant 5 minute pathogen test systems available…they are not cheap ). OV would supply the bottles, caps and labels. Each OV label would boast of the local dairymans name and his story address and identity. That farmer would have a OV webpage so he could connect to his consumers. He would be required to cheer lead and participate in OV organized Raw Milk promotion and education. The finished product would be picked up by a OV truck for distribution to local markets. OV would do the billing and pay the farmer a high value added price. The balance of the unbottled raw milk would be picked up by OV tankers and sent to be commingled with other farmers milk to make cheese and butter etc. On the OV pick-up truck ( that picks up finished raw milk bottles ) there may be several farmers raw milk all in their own OV cobranded bottles. All of this raw milk would go directly to stores and would be very fresh. The hybrid model would allow sales of pastuerized OV products to be tolerated by those with Lactose Intolerance…because the raw milk sales would fix lactose intolerance and OV cooked products could be consumed by those consumers. A symbiotic relationship . This would rocket OV sales and allow market dominance and pioneering. What a great move. Being pasture grazed would matter and the farmer would get true value added.
This business model could work….it would need investment from the dairymen and from OV…but it could work.
The only problem with this model is that it requires OV to admit to the science of raw milk and that there are benefits to raw milk over dead milk. The president of Horizon years ago in 2003 told me at an IDFA meeting that he loved the idea of organic raw milk but it would destroy everything that Horizon had built….long shelf life and the idea that UHT and HTST pastuerized milk was a good thing. It would "undo the brand".
Well….when something does not work…you need to revisit the plan and make adjustments. Continuing the same thing with the same bad lactose intolerance and immune disturbing results is what most scholars call…not intellegent….and us conscious raw milk people call it….stupid. When people are screaming for raw milk…smart market savvy farmers take serious notice and act…..now!! The smartest do it quickly and do it best. In fact a farmer that ignores the request of a hungry mother with sick kids pleading for raw milk at the steps of this organic milk barn…is heartless or worse. Listening to consumers and connecting to them is the most sustainable thing OV and its dairymen can do.
I was an OV dairymen for one year when we first started OPDC in 2001 and 2002. When movie stars and consumers started arriving and wanting raw organic grass fed milk….I listened and responded immediately…for that OV kicked me out of the coop. It hurt deeply….but the pain was soon healed by the consumers their raw milk passion and their real and human connection. When farmers connect to consumers…the farmer is energized with relevance and the love of his products by his consumers. In this world most commodity farmers do not even know what being loved is like…they are filled with depression and despare most of the time. They struggle to survive and feed the bank. Their true boss.
I sense a softening at OV….the very Amishmen that voted to kick me out of the coop are now selling raw milk. They told me of this some years ago. Lloyd Steuve ( the Alta Dena Family ) told me that there are ongoing discussions with the producers and the management at OV to change policy on raw milk…because people want this food. How times change.
The get together at OPDC with Sally was awesome. The walk to see the cows and share the stories of healing with raw milk were warming and confirming.
Next weekend I speak at the ACRES conference and my speech is named "Taking Back the American Food Chain". If you think about this….it is the best American stimulus plan possible.
It is good for global warming ( pastures are carbon sinks ) it heals illness ( health care??!!?? ) and prevents and reverses disease trends, it puts money to the bottom and starting point of the economy. The only losers are the FOOD INC…food poisoning and processing mafias and they deserve to be denied existence. The dollar voting consumer is slowly doing just that.
Beware of those in power that use bacteria paranoia and food safety as a scare tactic to protect their erroding market base. I have read so much written by so many that are ignorant and simply restate the dogma and have done no research to follow the best new science or what has been shown to be possible in CA. 65,000 people drinking raw milk from 17 farmers markets, 375 stores and coops. Everyone is thriving.
Happy thanks giving. Raw Milk takes back the American Food chain.
David….your message in this post is dead on target. OV is a family of farmers but as more and more of them are visited by consumers this band of brothers will need to resort their policies. At the Steuve Dairy in Oakdale CA…there is a sign that says… "The Milk of Human KIndness is NOT PASTUERIZED".
I could not agree more.
Mark McAfee
( Grandpa )
"The biggest word we have for all the aspects of food production is not agri-method or agri-technique or even (though becoming so) agri-business but agri-culture. And the Latin roots of agriculture come from words which refer to field cultivation. The words cultivate, culture, and cult are all related and they reflect, sequentially, the practical methodologies, the social relations, and the spiritual or religious significance of how we grow, share, and are grateful for the Earth products which enable us to live, individually and collectively.
A good part of the Green criticism of and even anger toward agribusiness lies in the recognition that agribusiness represents a kind of how-to, chemically-reductionist tunnel visionconcerned only with maximized yields and maximized profits. (Get big or get out, as former Secretary of Agriculture Earl Butz proclaimed.) Agribusiness does not care about and is not interested in the cultural meaning and spiritual content of non?market food production.
The word market is a kind of cultural gate between agriculture and agribusiness. That is, if you believe that the only real way to understand food production is in terms of the market, you are by definition in the camp of agribusiness."
http://wholeearth.com/issue/2051/article/409/home.economics.-.analysis.of.us.agricultural.policy
"If in agriculture we replace the standard of productivity with that of constant supply, and think of the farm land and the farm people as resources in the sense of their ability to rise and replenish themselves again and again, then a number of dangerous and widely credited fallacies become apparent. I want to talk now about six of these:
1. That agriculture may be understood and dealt with as an industry."
2. That a sound agricultural economy can be based on an export market.
3. That the "free market" can preserve agriculture.
The "free market"–the unbridled play of economic forces–is bad for agriculture because it is unable to assign a value to things that are necessary to agriculture. It gives a value to agricultural products, but it cannot give a value to the sources of those products in the topsoil or the ecosystem or the farm or the farm family or the farm community. Indeed, people who look at farming from the standpoint of the "free market" do not understand the relation of product to source. They believe that the relation is merely mechanical, because they believe that agriculture is or can be an industry. And the "free market" is helpless to suggest otherwise.
The "free market" values production alone. And this exclusive emphasis on production, in agriculture, inevitably causes overproduction. In agriculture, both high prices and low prices cause overproduction. But overproduction leads only to low prices, never to high prices. It could perhaps be said, then, that on the "free market’ agricultural productivity has no direct or stable relation to value."
4. That productivity is the only necessary standard of production.
5. That there are too many farmers.
6. That hand labor is bad.
"we can say that probably any farm work is miserable, whether done by hand or by machine, if it is economically desperate–if it does not secure the worker in some stable, decent, rewarding connection to the land worked. We can say that hand work in a small field owned by the worker, with the expectation of a decent economic return, is probably less miserable than mechanized work in somebody else’s large field. We can suppose with some confidence, moreover, that hand work in the company of family and neighbors might be less miserable than work done alone in the unrelieved noise of a machine."
It’s a model that threatens the current raw milk delivery system. I guess now that there are more people wanting it, the most important thing becomes the supply, not the creation. Anything…anything…to get more raw milk in refrigerators. This end justifies the means sucks…and it reflects the shortsightedness of those with positions of authority in this movement. Even worse that David eggs it on.
Those that do both…raw and boiled…those that are low balling inputs so they can profit when the tanker leaves them farm, have no place in the raw milk movement. Playing both sides of the fence isn’t right…it’s morally wrong…but I guess the almighty dollar can make good folks put their blinders on and focus on their wallets.
Looks like those that have carried this movement…those that are milking a few cows quietly, and serving people they know, the ones that are true to their feelings and disdain the conventional milk system…the REAL raw milk farmers…..are obviously going to have get even MORE resourceful…for those that have been contributing to the dis ease of the populace are seeing gold, and they will use any means necessary to take what they feel is theirs.
,l,,
There are risks for the authorities in this approach.How will they maintain the wall between producers and consumers?If these people get to talking to each other,what might happen?What keeps many producers in line is debt.An alliance with committed supporters can easily eliminate this debt and free up another producer.Most farmers,given half a chance would be quick to take a chance at being free and independent.The Organic market was once seen as the hope for small farms to get a better price for their high quality milk.But the Organic market did not give farmers control over their own economy.
Now the real battle over food rights will begin.Does the State or Federal government really have the authority to prevent farmers and consumers from joining together to produce their own food?Show me the LAW that they derive that authority from.I have a friend who was stopped by the police while driving an unregistered,unlicensed,pickup truck.He had no state drivers license and he had an unregistered,loaded handgun on the seat next to him.Needless to say,he was arrested and put in jail.When he was brought before the judge,he challenged the jurisdiction of the court.Since there had been no one injured and no flesh and blood human being who had a complaint against him,it was a simple matter of contract law.Had a contract been violated?He had lived in a way that carefully avoided any contract with the state.They returned his gun and his truck and let him go.If he had gotten a license to drive,he would still be in prison on the gun charge.The constitution still is our protection if we have the courage to stand our ground and not be intimidated into begging the authorities for permission to live our lives as we see fit.
Do you have any web links that discuss the US Corporation and contract law that you allude to above? I’d like to read more about this but there is so much misinformation out there I don’t know what to trust. Also, considering that these ‘contracts’ we enter into with the state (the birth certificate, SSN, drivers license, etc.) are bogus (because there was never full disclosure when they were signed – we were never told we’d become property of the state under a contractual agreement and thus the Constitution does not apply – and in the case of a birth certificate or SSN, signed by another person), could someone argue in court that the case against him/her should be thrown out because this is a case of contract law and the contract was never entered into with full disclosure?
If you disagree that the court has jurisdiction in your disagreement with the authorities,be very careful that you don’t accuse yourself.Even answering questions can be taken as agreement that you recognize the court’s jurisdiction in your disagreement.You should never appear in court voluntarily if you dispute the court’s jurisdiction.Contracts can be implied by your action or inaction.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8577731528746978991&ei=hxIQS4CxGcKHlAfxjf22Dg&q=michael+badnarik%27s+constitution+class&hl=en#
There are lots more of these.
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7040453665540929835&hl=en#
She makes a valid point that by requiring a grade A license, it not only forces farmers to contract with the state and sell to a processor, but anyone who holds a milk producer’s license is required to register their farm under the Premises Registration law, effectively turning the title of their property over to the government.
http://ppjg.wordpress.com/2009/11/27/wisconsin-a-state-under-seige-by-its-own-government/#more-4974
This seems to be where most lack courage (not sure if another word would fit better), to stand up to tptb. No one should be required nor expect to have to ask or even beg for "permission" to live as they see fit.
Someone please clarify;
Why would the dairy farmers who sell to the big processors care about the small raw dairy farmers or even that some of the bigger dairy farmers are selling raw milk? What difference does it make to them?
Why is it that farmers allowed some entity(s) to dictate the prices of their products? Why don’t the farmers have control over thier own economy? Why would they give such power to another?
I would be very concerned with a dairy that sells milk for raw and pasturization consumption. fears that the 2 would be mingled.
"I would be very concerned with a dairy that sells milk for raw and pasturization consumption. fears that the 2 would be mingled. "
Does outsourcing from pasteurized dairies by a raw dairy in order to meet consumer demand concern you? A recent fundraiser by WAPF clearly endorsed a dairy doing this practice.
When we expect that corporations should abide by law the same as we do ,how is that an antigovernment discussion?Before you make any more comments,please watch the whole series of videos by john harris.
I would like to hear any comments you have on the content of these videos.
I watched the videos from John Harris, "Its an Illusion." The people’s united community…and see your frustration.
But, he offers no alternative to the current system. How does he (or you) plan to live in a complex society? Specifically, after you rid yourselves of the government, how will you maintain the roads you drive on; the clean water you (or your cows) drink; the sewage systems that remove wastes from the cities near your farm?
It’s easy to attack the regulators, but coming up with an alternative plan is hard. Visit a developing country where babies die every day from dirty water and food (including raw milk) to see how hard it is to create an infrastructure. Have you visited the shacks next to rivers where insects transmit diseases every day to people because there is no functional public health system?
Unless you and John Harris have a better idea, I think we should support the good efforts by the government. And, criticize the bad parts – checks and balances; but to throw it all away and condemn every government worker who strives to protect the public health? I think not.
http://siu.blogs.cnn.com/2008/12/05/americas-worst-highways-and-bridges/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-09-24-stimulus-roads_N.htm
Enjoy the roads? Not in CA. They are either being torn up or waiting to be repaired…my hard earned taxes at work.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-05-07-sewers-main_N.htm
Dj Poo? In San Antonio the sewers backed up and flooded every time it rained. In Tampa there was boil water alerts with the rains…There is no doubt that it is in poor condition all over the USA.
http://environment.about.com/b/2007/08/30/tap-water-in-42-states-contaminated-by-chemicals.htm Clean tap water? hahaha yeah right…
Who are you referring to that doesn’t follow rules and what rules are you referring to? Can you be more specific? Are you implying that only certain people are required to follow rules? Who made up the rules you are referring to?
Are you referring to OP milk? Are you saying that Mark McAfee is outsourcing his milk? Do you have proof of this?
From November 2 post among many others from OPDC’s founder stating he outsources colostrum and milk for use in butter and other products. Does this practice of outsourcing not concern you? It does concern some in the food safety and organic world, and my understanding is that they will keep asking that question until the leaders (and consumers) in the raw dairy movement provide a definitive answer about their position on outsourcing.
***Email excerpt June 16, 2009 from Mark McAfee****
As far as colostrum is concerned we have not bought outside colostrum since 2006 after the recall incident.
As far as butter is concerned you are correct we have purchased outside organic grass fed raw milk from Steuves on occasion to skim off the cream to make raw butter. The skim then goes back to be processed at other organic creameries. This is no secret and in the past we have informed our consumers that must do this or there will be not enough raw butter. It takes 100 pounds of milk to make 4 pounds of butter. OPDC could never feed the starving raw milk consumers of CA if all we did was use our own milk. We work in cooperation with other organic grass fed dairies to get the job done ( at least on the raw butter side.we only use our milk for all other products ).
Who are you referring to that doesn’t follow rules and what rules are you referring to? Can you be more specific? Are you implying that only certain people are required to follow rules? Who made up the rules you are referring to?
As to Op outsourcing in the past, that was disclosed. Is he still out sourcing? Is that what you are saying?
Know your farmer and check your labels (regularly – you might notice when the USDA organic seal isn’t there, for what its worth, which is a whole other story).
Seriously, go drive on the roads and drink the water in a developing country (and bring your infant), then get back to me about how bad it is in the US. if you aren’t shot before you get home.
Do WE the PEOPLE that finiance the PEOPLES Government and have served honorably in the military services not have an earned RIGHT to point out when we feel that the PEOPLES government has erred without being accused of being anti the PEOPLES Government?
Checks and balances? There is littles of that remaining? Maybe only Ron Paul and a few others. NAYSAYERS anything wrong with the picture I painted?
Socialism is modern day SLAVERY and its CLAD with a FACADE of for the good of all. DW
I do love this country, including the founding principles including self-reliance and personal responsibility. The founding fathers would be appalled at the nanny-state we have become.
What I also love is that little scrap of paper called the Constitution, and the other one called the Bill of Rights.
The constitution is clear as to what the government can and cannot do…and I see nothing in ot that would allow the government to tell someone what they can or cannot consume for the nourishment of them and their families, nor is the source of their food of any concern to you, the FDA, the CDC, the USDA, or any other federal department. It just ain’t there, bubba..
I believe the time is close at hand when the people are fed up…not just on food, but on government interference in their daily lives i n general. read http://www.JuicyMaters.com >Politics>>Raw Milk Wars>>>Perfect Storm Equals Perfect Opportunity
Bob Hayles
http://www.JuicyMaters.com
Remember, every time you are in contact with an elected official, remind them, "We don’t work for you. You work for US."
Since I don’t live in a "developing country" that isn’t the issue. The issues are here in the USA. There are many starving right here in the US, Many roads are in very poor disrepair, the tap water in many cities/towns are polluted with many chemicals/bacteria.
CA has high taxes much of the money is supposed to go for road repair, we have poor roads and this isn’t a new thing, been this way for many years.
As for being shot at….that happened many years ago, a Veteran thought he was still in Nam and was up a tree sniper shooting. I can go to the corner gas station, or over to the 7-11 by kaiser south hosp and have a great probablity of being shot at or knifed. I don’t need to go to a 3rd world country to experience that crap.
I lived in Germany when we checked our cars for bombs each time we wanted to use them, we were such good sitting ducks for the extremists in the 70s&80s, we also received lovely propaganda in our mailboxes from them (we lived on base). I know what it is like to get up in the middle of a icy Feb night and stand in nothing but your nightclothes,so the dogs can go through the building you live in searching for bombs. I know what it is like to teach your young kids how to be safe against potential danger. I know how it is when your 8 yr old is surrounded by Polizi with uzi’s drawn on him for playing cops&robbers with toy guns. I know how it is when a child is taken and possibly sold for someones pleasure; when Beirut was bombed it affected us in Germany in many ways… And just think- Germany wasn’t a developing country either. Been there done that, It sickens me when people toss out the empty words: go live in a 3rd world country and come back and talk to me. That is nothing more than a cop-out because you can’t back up your side of the discussion.
The USAs infant death rate isn’t anything to be proud of, nor the maternal death rate.
Again You didn’t answer my questions:
As to Op outsourcing in the past, that was disclosed. Is he still out sourcing? Is that what you are saying?
Who are you referring to that doesn’t follow rules and what rules are you referring to? Can you be more specific? Are you implying that only certain people are required to follow rules? Who made up the rules you are referring to?
Wisconsin: A State Under Seige by its Own Government by Marti Oakley
UH HO Premise registation a hidden legal trick for possible land confiscation!!! Can any legal expert here state that the author of the article is totally wrong???? Tell me it AIN’T SO PLEASE.
Take the blinders off. The discussions about Mark McAfee and outsourcing happened on this blog. He lied about outsourcing in 2009 until Amanda Rose posted an email from him to her stating he was outsourcing for butter and then he has a lame excuse about getting confused.
Do you actually think his 300-400 cows have the capacity to make all the butter and cheese he sells throughout all of California? It takes 100 pounds of milk to make 4 pounds of butter (quote from Mark). I personally shop at three different health food stores and they are always stocked with OPDC butter. They are never out of supply. Mark has also invested in creating a new label for his butter, as well as a new line of cultured butter.
I also question how it is possible for these same cows to produce the amount of colostrum that is sold from OPDC. How many cows are giving birth on this farm and how much colosturm does one cow produce? There is an abundance of colostrum for sale with the OPDC label? Hmmm
The person that is going to hurt the raw milk movement is Mark McAfee. He has the largest raw milk dairy in the U.S. and his business practices lack integrity, the very foundation that is so important to the raw milk movement. You cant trust this farmer. Bad business practices leads to more regulation. It is the cycle of consumer protection in the U.S.
The only pro raw milk person on this blog that acknowledges that there is a problem with OPDC business practices is Bob Hayles. Why is that? All raw milk advocates should be appalled.
cp
I pay my taxes for those roads you mentioned…it’s called infrastructure, and is constitutuionally a function of government.
I also pay my taxes for national defense, another constitutionally permitted government action.
I DON’T pay my taxes to unconstitutionally burden me with regulations that are outside what the constitution permits them to enact…and making food choices, be it a MickeyD burger or a glass of raw milk is in that group. Rather than making straw men up, if I am so wrong, simply point out in the constitution where it is the government’s business if I drink raw milk or where I get it from. It’s real simple for you if I am wrong, but impossible if I am right.
hmmm…impossible if I am right. Perhaps why the "rights" issue is so studiously avoided by the other side. They KNOW they lose when the constitution is brought into the room.
Bob Hayles
http://www,juicymaters.com
When in contact with an elected official or government bureaucrat ALWAYS remind them, "We don’t work for you. You work for US."
You must have missed the part where john harris says the system is not broken.Things are a mess for us because we don’t understand the rules of the game.If you believe that we are a society ruled by law under which everyone is seen as equal,then we are in agreement.The constitution still works,we still live in a society that is ruled by law.We are all free to contract with each other.If I want to contract with the corporation known as THE UNITED STATES to become an employee in return for social security support in my retirement ,I am free to do so.For some people this will be a reasonable thing to do.The problem comes when the majority of people believe that contracts can be made mandatory.
This where the corporations that are pretending to be the government cross the line into unlawful activity.It is unlawful to practice deception when contracting with others.All contracts are by definition voluntary.
Government is not the problem.We have brought our problems on ourselves and we have the responsibility to fix them through our own actions.We have abandoned our responsibility to each other and let corporations decieve us into becoming children again.We need to stop wasting our lives with distractions and grow up and take responsibility for our actions.If we want to sell ourselves into slavery,it is our choice.We shouldn’t complain about being slaves if we became slaves voluntarily.After all a life dedicated to serving others can be very fulfilling if it is done voluntarily.We need to learn the rules of the game.We need to know that corporations are free to offer us contracts and we are free to accept or decline them.We are free to alter those contracts and return them to the corporations for agreement.There is nothing inherently evil about corporations.It is up to us to see that they are not deceptive in their contracts.
I have nothing against government.The infrastructure that enables us to live together in a complex society is supported by property taxes,fuel taxes,etc..These are public property and are supported by use taxes.
I don’t have blinders on. What part of my question(s) to Lykke did you not understand? ~~> As to Op outsourcing in the past, that was disclosed. Is he still out sourcing? Is that what you are saying?
Since I don’t buy OP butter or colostrum it wasn’t something I looked into. I asked about MILK only.
"The person that is going to hurt the raw milk movement is Mark McAfee. He has the largest raw milk dairy in the U.S. and his business practices lack integrity, the very foundation that is so important to the raw milk movement."
Well then you have nothing to fear, he will sink himself.
"You cant trust this farmer. Bad business practices leads to more regulation."
OMG this could be said about tptb. Trust them? Too many lies.
" It is the cycle of consumer protection in the U.S."
Who is in charge and running the show of "consumer protection"?
"The only pro raw milk person on this blog that acknowledges that there is a problem with OPDC business practices is Bob Hayles. Why is that?"
Short term memory loss? The blinders comment could be said of you. Back when it was first disclosed about OP outsourcing, many made (on this blog) comments of disappointment etc. Are you one of those who enjoy beating the dead horse? If new information comes to light, by all means share. Otherwise, what is the point of continually rehashing the same done issues?
" All raw milk advocates should be appalled."
How do you know they weren’t/aren’t?
Miguel, you are so very right, it isn’t the government; it’s those running it and those who follow like sheep (is it true sheep follow blindly?) Too many don’t stand for anything, not even for themselves. They don’t take responsibility for themselves or their actions.
If OPDC did not exist…65000 people would not have access to safe raw milk in CA.
OPDC is not and has never outsourced for its raw milk bottling. I have said this at least 20 times. CP and Lykke….what part of this do you not understand.
The state of CA does not consider raw butter ( class 4 ) to be a source of pathogens. So it is not treated like raw milk. It is not tested for pathogensand does not need to meet the coliform standard or SPC standard.
CP and Lykke….do you consider feeding people with safe raw milk to be a questionable business practice. Is that what you hate about OPDC?
I will ignore your comments and instead accept the love and respect of my consumers that know better and have visited OPDC and know what I am and who I am. You are an empty biased bitchy broken record.
If either of you were our consumers your comments may mean something.
Go pastuerize yourselves.
Mark
Amen. That’s my concern with the OPDC outsourcing. They are processed in the same plant even if the outsourced product is a class 4 product or an unlicensed colostrum.
Can’t we bury the horse? Why every six months do we have to have another outsourcing revelation? It is indeed tiring. (Says the bitchy broken record.)
I propose that we bury the horse in an open grave on the OPDC dairy and throw a bit of dirt on top of it. We can wrap the horse in traditional funeral garb and light a few candles.