On the heels of the failure of Connecticut legislation that would have pulled raw milk off the retail shelves in the metropolitan New York City area, a state regulator has come out with what can only be characterized as a tirade against raw milk. And an irresponsible tirade at that.
It is a sad spectacle, especially following up on the increasingly sane discussions going on here, most recently even gaining a measure of approval from the usually-shy and moody “Regulator.”
Here are the two main arguments by F. Philip Prelli, head of Connecticut’s Department of Agriculture, and the flaws in his logic:
–Beware manure. His basic argument is that raw milk production involves “a process that inherently is fraught with difficulties because of the high concentration of fecal matter on a dairy farm…Manure will be present where cows are housed and milked.” Is he saying something new here? “Fecal matter”—I love his effort to use “scientific” terminology in a subtle effort to generate fear—has been around farms pretty much since the beginning of time, hasn’t it? Why should we suddenly be afraid of manure? Because, obviously, he is banking on the fact that many people see themselves as living in a sanitized world, where “fecal matter” doesn’t exist.
–Twisting the data. Prelli’s next argument is that Connecticut has had multiple problems with raw milk. Last summer, he states, “14 people were sickened from consuming unpasteurized milk produced by a Simsbury farm…It was not the first time that illness from consumption of raw milk or raw milk products has occurred in Connecticut.” So, I read on, expecting to learn about other cases. If you read closely (and this is part of the data game going on here), you learn that “in 1990 four cases of campylobacteriosis were linked to the consumption of raw milk from a Connecticut farm.” That is IT. 18 cases in 18 years—that works out to an average of ONE illness per year over the previous 18 years.
The rest of his gibberish about recalls of raw milk in 2001 and “three occasions over the past five years where action taken by” ag officials kept bad milk off the market are irrelevant. No one became ill, and we well know from experiences in New York and Pennsylvania that officials frequently find bugs without anyone becoming ill…and then use their findings to generate fear and congratulate themselves.
That’s the bottom line here. Fear mongering. Prelli has presented a totally bankrupt argument. If raw milk is so dangerous, why even allow sales from the farm? Why not totally ban it? Actually, that would probably be the next step in Connecticut if raw milk were eliminated from retail sales. We’d see a “stepped” approach—get rid of retail sales first, then move to on-farm sales.
Unfortunately for Prelli and his handlers in Washington, consumers are wising up to the fear mongering, and the Connecticut restrictions have rightfully been rejected.
Prelli’s article reinforces what a big loss the Connecticult legislative initiative was to the FDA and its lackeys within the medical and food protection communities. They’ve racked up a couple of big wins, defeating SB 201 in California and achieving victory against the Meadowsweet herdshare in New York. They obviously don’t take well to losing.
***
I’d like to address some nastiness that came out of my previous post. Personal insults aren’t a great way to score intellectual points, and even less so when the insults are posted anonymously. For that reason alone, I think Mark McAfee is correct to take umbrage at being called a liar by Concerned Person.
I’d like to use my posting above to make a related point. It can easily be argued that the intellectual dishonesty displayed by people like Prelli in Connecticut, and others in the public health community, warrant questionable data from proponents of raw milk in return. I believe the reverse is true—that the lies and smears from government lackeys make it incumbent on consumers who value their food rights to be careful in presenting their data. I pointed out inconsistencies that have been raised in how the BSK study results have been presented, not because the inconsistencies are outrageous, but because they can, and sometimes are, attacked by the anti-raw-milk community. Unfortunately, when you’re in the position of seeking rights that have been expropriated, you need to make your case as airtight as possible.
The 2003 version of the Untold Story of Milk:
pg. 304 McAfee recently took samples of his milk to a laboratory in Fresno where technicians introduced pathogens into the milkSalmonella and E.coli 0157:H7. The organisms could not be found in the milk the next daythey could not survive.
pg. 338 McAfee then showed me laboratory reports of the tests hed recently run. He had introduced pathogens into his milk and they simply did not multiply. In many cases they died off. (gives the impression that the pathogens were no longer detectable)
The 2009 version of the Untold Story of Milk:
pg. 374 McAfee then showed me laboratory reports of the test hed recently run. He had introduced pathogens into his milk and they simply did not multiply. In many cases they died off.
pg. 372 Referring to Organic Pastures Dairy.The dairy does not outsource its dairy products and uses all of its own fluid raw milk in its own products. (Mark admitted to outsourcing cream and colostrum)
quote…."Why did the leaders in the raw milk community need to lie about the results of the BSK study? Why the lies, if raw milk is so wonderful and safe? Whos financially benefiting from these lies?"
…sure you didn’t name names….but the notion that you aren’t calling anyone a liar is male bovine fecal matter….(or BS for those with a reasonable view of germ theory)
Let’s get this straight…Marks and Ron’s exaggeration of the BSK study doesn’t alter the safeness of raw milk. Neither does Pirelli’s fear mongering tantrum. The safety of this country’s raw milk supply is proven everyday, one bucket and one gallon at a time. And each and every day, much to the chagrin of the Deceivers like Pirelli, thousands of gallons of raw milk are being consumed….without incident.
Those that are worried about what ‘could’ happen, need to see clearly what IS happening…the raw milk supply is growing, and more people are thriving because of it.
Again I reiterate…the motivation of the authorities, and their carefully orchestrated fear campaign should be investigated and uncovered. Stretching the truth, offering partial information, and downright lying are consistently being offered from government officials…one should pause and ask why? Who really ‘gains’ from this….
(PS Lykke…yes I am calling cp a liar, because she presents herself falsely…and if you consider that to be an ‘attack’…so be it…I call it telling the truth)
Change is comming.
As far as the BSK labs study is concerned ….Salmonella pathogens could "not be detected in less than 24 hours in one test". That is not a misquote or exageration. That is a fact. Thats right…it went from millions to can not detect in less than 24 hours.
So…lets all just cool our jets and stop blogging so much and start doing something useful. When we get something useful done we should then come back and blog about what we have done. Talk is cheap and easy…."action with purpose" is what makes America great and it is missing.
Mark McAfee
If you can not or will not use your real name on this blog….. that says all I ( and we ) need to know about you and your purposes. Standing behind trees and rocks was smart and ok for early colonists fighting british redcoats.
In our civil society we stand up when we speak.
Mark McAfee
One person wrote the book and another was the editor and publisher. They are the leaders in the raw milk movement Im referring to. These are the two people who are financially benefiting from the book. You may consider Mark McAfee a leader in the raw milk movement, I dont.
Now if Mark did make the statements that are referred to in the book and they are incorrect, then I guess he needs to discuss that with the people involved in writing the book
Maybe you are confused and think the question I ask about who is gaining financially was directed at Mark. Why would you automatically think this? Is it because he makes statements to the media about how much his business has increased and how much money he is making.
cp
Alright, this is not a fact, but I’m beginning to wonder if this is more about not being able to interpret laboratory data rather than lies, exaggeration, misrepresentation, or wishful thinking.
Mark and All – print the BSK lab sheets and look closely again at the Salmonella data relative to the above statement. Honestly, the BSK description of their methods is so vague, it is hard to fully understand the results. For example, what was the volume of milk/colostrum used? You maight want to go back to the BSK lab scientist and get another explanation rather than listen to someone writing on a blog, but it seems important to get this straight since the data is used widely (including in a book) to promote the safety of raw dairy – perhaps ask your lab if that is an appropriate use of this data set? So far as I can see from the sheets David posted, it is not a good use of this data.
Table 1
1. On Day 0, the lab made a solution of Salmonella and measured the concentration: 67,000,000 cells per milliliter (in about an eyedrop) and put 3 milliliters (3 eyedrops) of it into the raw milk and colostrum in a mix with the E. coli O157:H7 and Listeria cells.
2. Table 1 shows the results of the first experiment. The Salmonella could not be detected using their test (<1,000 cells/ml). In other words, they put the Salmonella into the milk/colostrum and tested for it – nothing there. That experiment failed for Salmonella and they had to re-do it.
Table 2
3. Table 2 shows the results of a second experiment with Salmonella again. They decided to carry this one out longer – to 14 days. The Salmonella numbers stay pretty level through Day 10 (keep in mind, when looking at bacteria that are in the millions, changes like 3 vs. 5 million don’t matter much). On Day 14 there was a reduction from the millions to the hundreds of thousands of Salmonella. That’s not much of a decrease, especially if "good bacteria" had had a chance to grow over 14 days and get the Salmonella under control.
Again, note that they only measured E. coli O157:H7 and Listeria out to 7 days, so be careful making comparisons with the 14 day Salmonella numbers.
1. To create millions of raw milk consumers
2. Encourage small family farms to start selling raw milk because they can make 120 thousand dollars a year
3. the population who needs raw milk the most are pregnant women, growing children, the elderly and those with compromised immune systems.
The 3rd agenda is where the problem lies. These are the very people who will become ill if raw milk is contaminated with a pathogen. This is why there needs to be warning labels and point of sale signs with ACCURATE information about pathogens and the illnesses they can cause. The leaders in the raw milk movement are not providing this information.
It is my opinion that the leaders in the raw milk community are being irresponsible in the manner they are promoting raw milk. Dont encourage our most vulnerable populations to consume a product that has a pathogen risk attached.
Once again I ask the question, how many children who became ill from raw milk in the last few years had parents who read this book or similar information on pro raw milk websites and made a choice that almost killed their children?
We all have an ethical and moral responsibility not to harm children.
(2003 version) The Untold Story of Milk: Green Pastures, Contented Cows and Raw Dairy Foods
Forward by Sally Fallon
Only one force can reverse milks decline and that is the educated consumer, the consumer who demands a quality product, a product that comes from cows on good pasture, that contains all the butterfat that nature put there and that has not been subjected to modern processing. When the consumer once again demands pure and healthy milk, and indicates a willingness to pay a fair price and even travel some distance to obtain such a product, farmers will respond by providing ita groundswell that will eventually force regulators to abandon their unreasonable opposition. THE PURPOSE OF THIS BOOK IS TO CRATE MILLIONS OF SUCH CONSUMERS AND BY SO DOING REVITALIZE FAMILY FARMS AND LOCAL COMMUNITIES.
Raw milk is a movement whose time has come, one that will change our thinking and the shape of our society in almost beneficially way; and THE UNTOLD STORY OF MILK WILL SERVE AS A CATALYST TO THIS MOVEMENT, PROVIDING CONSUMERS WITH THE FACTS AND INSPIRATION THEY NEED TO EMBRACE NATURES PERFECT FOOD.
(2009 version) The Untold Story of Milk: The History, Politics and Science of Natures Perfect Food: Raw Milk From Pasture-Fed Cows
Forward by Sally Fallon Morell
(same paragraph) THE PRUPOSE OF THIS BOOK IS TO CREATE MILLIONS OF SUCH CONSUMERS AND BY SO DOING REVITALIZE FAMILY FARMS AND LOCAL COMMUNITIESBECAUSE IN THE ECONOMICS OF RAW MILK LIES THE PATH TO TRUE PROSPERITY, ROBUST RETURNS INDED COMPARED TO THE DIVIDENDS OF STOCKS AND BONDS. No other investment promises such handsome income to the family willing to work.On a farm of twenty cows, the gross income is about one hundred twenty thousand dollars per year…
Working in favor of this quintessential grass roots movement is new research showing the superior safety and health benefits of raw milk; the demise of the germ theory of medicine and the advent of probiotics; and increased consumer activism in the form of private milk clubs, cow-share and herd-share agreements and legal defense associations to defend consumer access to raw milk, ESPECIALLY FOR THOSE WHO NEED IT MOSTPREGNANT WOMEN, GROWING CHILDREN, THE ELDERLY AND THOSE WITH COMPROMISED IMMUNE SYSTEMS
Ends with the same paragraph.
cp
"there needs to be warning labels and point of sale signs with ACCURATE information about pathogens and the illnesses they can cause."
I agree 100%.Show us this ACCURATE information and the scientific research that supports it.I haven’t found any information about illness caused by pathogens that didn’t start with the premis that illnesses are caused by pathogens.Certainly illnesses can have other causes.Let’s look at all of the other possible causes of illness along with "pathogens".Let’s expand our search for the causes of illness.You must admit that our single minded focus on bacteria as the cause of disease is not yielding the results we are after.
you repeatedly make it clear that you’re here to pound only one drum. you have no interest in ANYTHING beyond your agenda. you are the liar and fraud here. no one else comes close to your low level of stoopdom.
it shows through your posts like a beacon that you are a "concerned" party. and let me be extremely clear here, you’re in no way concerned about anything but your own slimy little agenda.
you’re welcome here of course, we need you so we can all see (in real time) why we need to push you out of our lives when ever we encounter your ilk. there are a lot of sheep in the world that i’m sure you can herd to your evil little hearts content.
have you not noticed that no one here much cares what you have to say? frustrating ain’t it… we’re not sheep who can be led by the nose or think you have any credibility.
the fact that you need to operate behind a series or your own lies says it all.
here’s what i’m sure of: you are involved in the pending marler lawsuit, and/or you work for marler as a troll. go ahead and tell me i’m "mistaken" but be aware your words will betray you and decieve no one. you won’t be able to hide behind the lies you’d have to remember/write should you even attempt to try. why? because everything you’ve written so far is logged here and easy to recall and cross reference.
go ahead and try though, we need the transparency it will provide.
anyone think i’m wrong or way off here? please post and explain why.
i realize we all want to be "civil" here, and i try, but someone needs to call a spade a spade once in a while so no one forgets why the spade is here.
cp has an agenda and would see individual liberty curtailed for us all so that cp can achieve her goal. i’d like to use nicer language but can’t find a word tamer then slime to do it with.
hugh
When your only response can be insults and name calling (just like milk farmer) I win. Its a sign that Ive made my point well. I have been blogging here long enough to know when a person is at a loss for an intelligent response, insults fly.
You are right hugh betcha, I do have an agenda–to keep balanced information in the raw milk movement. Im sorry you are troubled by that.
Thanks for the insults. That means Im on the right track.
cp
Later this month, if all goes well, Colorado State University is doing a laboratory pathogen challenge test, comparing raw milk and pasteurized milk. It will be a published study.
5 samples of both raw and pasteurized milk will be inoculated with the usual suspects (Campy, Listeria, Salmonella & E. coli 0157:H7), plus staph. Aureus, and bacteria counts will be taken at 3, 6, 9 & 24 hour intervals – all refrigerated. (If I remember right – my computer crashed Saturday and I haven’t restored my data yet.)
The raw milk will come from RMAC dairies, and the pasteurized milk will come from the local grocery store (which is most likely ultra-pasteurized, homogenized milk – it’s difficult to find anything else in this state…) As soon as I get results I’ll be sure to share them; I expect it will take at least a month after the lab tests to document their findings…
We didn’t have input to the study design, otherwise I’m sure we would have insisted that it come from grass-fed cows (Colorado grass begins to show in April, but it’s been a dry year, it’s still freezing at night, and most have been on hay/grain feed all winter) but I’m very grateful that they’re doing this for even 24 hours. RMAC is honored to participate in this study, although after reading this blog, I’m not near as cocky as I was a month ago… 🙂 But we’ll at least have more data!
I wish we could do a health benefits study! You find me the grant, and I think I can find the population of raw milk drinkers, as well as someone to write the application. Gov’t grants usually have to be written by early December to receive funds the next year. If some of you could suggest study control parameters, I’d welcome your suggestions.
I thought maybe this information would give hope to some of you. The CSU team is awesome, and good scientists. A month or two, and we’ll have some more data to chew on….
Miguel’s vision – studying the root cause of disease – may actually happen in this decade.
-Blair
– Benjamin Franklin
I commend your organization for participating in the CSU study. There is a great deal of scientific curiosity about this issue, and a comparison of raw vs. pasteurized milk is appropriate to answer basic questions about survival, growth (amazing no one has done this already in any comprehensive manner). It would be great to add in other parameters, as you suggest, like grass vs. non-grass fed (need a definition of grass fed), organic, size of farm…there are dairies around the country that produce organic, grass fed, pasteurized milk too, maybe not in Colorado. The CSU study might be limited in scope, but hopefully the new work will generate new data and questions – the foundation of future studies.
There is an inherent problem with using private labs for this kind of work a la BSK study. First, there is perception – it can appear that you are "paying" for the results wanted…clearly this was a problem with how the BSK results were subsequently used for political purposes. Second, the private labs do not have the methodology and academic interest that scientists at universities thrive on (usually a grad student and their major professor). I’m not putting down private labs, per se, but this kind of work is not their purpose. Universities aren’t perfect either, but for a focused issue like the study you describe (and the fact that I know many excellent, ethical scientists at CSU), this seems to be a step forward and better than trying another contracted private lab study. The government labs have shown no interest in doing any of this work, so don’t count on them (and, again there could be a bias, real or perceived).
Ultimately though, all sides must accept the data for what it is when CSU releases it. Who knows what the results will reveal, but if I’ve learned anything watching this exchange about BSK, inoculating politics into the brew can lead to great turmoil.
Conducting a study to look at health outcomes among raw milk drinkers and a control group will be tricky. One thing you might consider would be trying to piggy back onto other very large, long term health research projects along the lines of the Framingham Study. The survival and growth of pathogens in raw milk can be short term (though I think you are overly optimistic thinking one month…). In contrast, health outcome studies, especially involving chronic diseases and nutrition, require many years of research…that is, in part, why the raw milk movement gets ignored when testimonials are presented – doesn’t meet the scientific standard. Even the European studies often cited were very large, long term, complicated (and I think they piggy backed on other health issues being studied)…even with excellent design, the European studies still left more questions than answers. But, gotta start somewhere.
http://www07.grants.gov/search/search.do;jsessionid=0cL1Jh7hFvft7GGTpkgsvwvG2vp24vKnbbqFq83QlTr2ZGfkCDhg!29717242?oppId=44421&flag2006=false&mode=VIEW
http://www.csrees.usda.gov/fo/agriculturalandfoodresearchinitiativeafri.cfm
My personal standards require restraint.
I respect RMAC greatly and look forward to their well designed study..it should tell us much and we will all learn much.
Mark
According to Uffe Ravnskov MD PHD in his book THe Cholestrol Myths the facts of the Framingham Study concerning saturated fat and cholestrol causing heart disease is a myth and the truth is rejected by those who should know better. If they reject the facts of the Framingham cholestrol study why should we think they would embrace a positive result for raw milk?
What test is the most important the one the one that has made dramatic improvements in my health by consuming raw dairy or what some good folks at the university report?
Bottom line Freedom to Choose what we decide to put in our mouths. Is that to much ask in this enlightened age?
I have nothing good to say about those in positions of power who use their lies to dissuade people from seeking out the sources of nutrition they need to bring themselves to good health.
Why is it ok to push chemically added processed phoods, drugs (medications)? Long term effects are known, yet this is encouraged. Why?
Because simple precepts are at work. Certain activities are deemed acceptable; others are not. Precepts color thoughts and actions, as so many have so often said on this blog when discussing the pradigm of germ theory. If the precept says that manufactured, processed foods are as good or better than natural ones, or that infectious disease results from mere contact with a microbe, then all considerations about related processes will reflect those ideas. Precepts are the prism through which we diffuse all data. They cause us to define acceptable risk in one way or another. The problem is, of course, that risk/benefit analysis is all over the map, and if there is disagreement, and one of the parties has the power and will to apply controls, then the other partys freedom will be snatched.
According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, sitting in a moving automobile carries a risk of death at the rate of approximately 1 person per 70,000 individuals per year. How does that compare with the risk of drinking raw milk from all sources? Of course the automobile is statically much more dangerous. (If drinking raw milk were as dangerous as riding in an automobile, assuming a conservative half million raw milk drinkers, we would see at least 7 raw milk related deaths every year.)
Apples and oranges? Perhaps, but really, children are DYING in cars every day! And while seat belts, baby seats, air bags, speed limits, and fines and fees are all well and good, we obviously havent been as effective as we might be. I say prohibit putting children in the car for frivolous errands. No more Sunday drives, no more unnecessary trips to the store. We can bring kids to the doctors office sure, and to Grandmas house (limit that to once per week), and to school, and to daycare, but no more of this little Debby was just tagging along with Mama on the way to the hair dresser or the post office. Thats just irresponsible. People obviously dont understand that when they strap their children into a car theyre playing with their lives. With just a little more effort, government can have a very positive effect here. Im sure that with decisive government action we can lower the death rate.
It is what we know already that often prevents us from learning. Claude Bernard
CP Im invite you to come sit next to me so I can explain the human immune system to you and perhaps you can undertstand why raw milk is a great immune system rebuilding food.
Next weeks sales will even be higher as more people awake from their media and FDA induced trance.
Mark McAfee
New Jersey-based company received peanuts implicated in Salmonella outbreak; refused to provide access to records and refused to recall products
At the request of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, U.S. Marshals today executed an inspection warrant at Westco Fruit and Nuts Inc. (Westco/Westcott), an Irvington, N.J.-based company…
http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2009/NEW01988.html
In contrast consider this proverb which suggests that, A handful of common sense is worth a bushel of learning
Depending on an individuals bias and expertise any and all research can be easily criticized, picked apart and manipulated which is a natural consequence of what happens when imperfect human beings attempt to understand, explain and manipulate recognizable yet incomprehensible complexities.
By far the majority of those who consume raw milk in this world have not had the opportunity to peruse the data referenced too on this site and elsewhere. In fact they probably dont give a damn. Life goes on and they, including myself if privilege to such information would humorously consider it while we and our children drink a glass of warm or cold raw milk.
With learning great things can be accomplished however let us not, due to our indulgent and belligerent obsession with control lose sight of common sense, dignity and respect.
Ken Conrad
Colorado dairy shut after 11 sickened
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_12098542
I wonder if you have an opinion on this question:
The Colorado dairy is a cow share. The people drinking the milk own the cows. Can the dairy be fairly ordered to "stop distribution" of milk that doesn’t belong to the dairy?
Good question – the 2 links I posted today made me think – in the first, there are 9 people dead and FDA has to get a warrant just to access the company’s records (and FDA has no authority to impose a mandatory recall on these peanut products – or any other FDA-regulated product). In contrast, the herd share in CO is shut down by the state in response to the Campylobacter outbreak under investigation.
I don’t know if "shutting down" is the best approach during this type of herd share investigation (I also don’t know the specific CO laws relating to it). I am strongly opposed to doing "nothing" (denying the outbreak). But, is that approach the best way? If it were my dairy, I’d hold product and do an investigation to see if there was a problem, and correct it if possible – try to cooperate with the state and resolve the issue as soon as possible.
Regarding enforcement action, there is tremendous variation across different jurisdictions – federal, state, local. For example, there was a herd share -associated outbreak of Campytlobacter in California last year, and the owners voluntarily closed the operation – no arrests, fines, or warrants. If a farmer disagreed with the interpretation of the laws, wouldn’t that have to be decided by the courts (I defer to the resident lawyers on this site for that answer)?
The organization in CO Blair has talked about seems very proactive – I’m curious if this dairy participated. Note – I am opposed to "bashing" this dairy in any way; likewise, suggest that a long discussion of whether or not the state fabricated the outbreak would not be very useful IMHO. Likely, there isn’t enough information to know much about the situation at this point anyway, but I’m always interested in knowing with these outbreaks – what went wrong? Can it be fixed to help prevent future problems?
Hopefully the patients recover fully – campylobacteriosis is usually self limiting, but rarely there can be complications like GBS, a post-infectious paralytic syndrome.
Mark,
There is a saying, watch a persons feet and not their tongue. In other words, actions speak louder than words.
You seem to pride yourself for being honest and having integrity. No doubt, you are an expert on the human immune system. I challenge you to have the courage to educate people about the importance of a healthy immune system before trying raw milk. Take the high road and post this type of information on your website.
If you believe everything you profess about your cows and your milk, along with the sanitation practices you adhere to, there is nothing to fear. People need to be informed about both the pros and cons of raw milk. They need to know that there is a chance of pathogens being in the milk that could make them ill if their immune system is not healthy. You could explain to everyone that the germ theory is false and people become ill because of a damage immune system; they dont have enough good bacteria in their digestive track; therefore if a pathogen was present, they could become ill. Raw milk can help build up your immune system because healthy bacteria called probiotics are naturally present.
However, if you have been eating the SAD and your body has been filled with preservatives, additives, antibiotics and processed food in general, or if you have a chronic disease, your body may not be ready for raw milk. Before introducing raw milk into your diet, it would be wise to start eating whole, unprocessed organic foods. Also add organic yogurt and kefir to begin building up the good bacteria in your digestive track. Adding high quality probiotic capsules to your diet will also help immensely. Eat like this for about 3 months before transitioning to raw milk.
Dont you think it would be wise to educate people about this so that they dont become ill? Isnt this the moral and ethical action to take? Show us what you are made of. Set the standard for the raw milk industry.
cp
While youre contemplating my challenge, maybe your sanitation practices need to be worked on a bit also. Scroll down in the article to see what Im referring to.
http://www.marlerblog.com/2009/04/articles/case-news/contaminated-raw-milk-strikes-again-campylobacter-in-colorado-sickens-at-least-eight/
cp
When a cow share has some related illnesses it is something that the farmer knows about immediately. There is virtually no time or distance that separates him from his cow owners. So the extent and amount of people becomes evident right away.
By the way….an illness is really not defined. It means that a pathogen was detected in somebodies fecal sample. That person does not even need to be sick or hospitalized to be counted. Fully recovered people are counted as sick. If you drank raw milk and you complained of something and they got a fecal sample that was positive for a pathogen….you are in the numbers.
When this happens it is almost as if the health agencies start rejoicing ang going crazy with joy that they found a raw milk illness whooppee!!!!!! It does not matter if the person denies that they are sick….they are in the numbers and they stay in the numbers.
This is what I suggest doing:
Stop producing raw milk
Survey everyone that has drank any raw milk and get the real story.
Video tape the interviews
Test the raw milk at the dairy and that which was drank
Test the cows
Do not jump to conclsusions until after the research is completed
Do not blame anyone….it is not your milk….it is owned by the consumers of the milk.
Do not think that campylobacter is a bad thing….it is a natural thing. But it can make the weak sick as they build immunity. Science shows that once you have campy you are generally immune for life. It is also called "travelers diarrhia". It was not even considered a pathogen until 1972. Now with with our pathogen freak out paranoia it is a pathogen.
The reason Campylobacter is tough on Americans is because we have very little immunity to it. A study of raw milk consumers conducted several years ago showed that raw milk consumers had a immunity to campylobacter when others do not.
This is why we drink raw milk so that we become immune from pathogens.
This spooky subject gets supercharged because of American Media and the FDA histeria ( egged on by people like CP and others ). A case of diarrhea is not a bad thing. It is a very natural thing and in the end it evolves the immune system and we are stronger for it.
By the way….I do agree with CP. At OPDC we do spend a lot of time speaking with new raw milk consumers about building immunity and how to do it carefully. OPDC routinely get cancer patients that desparatly want to be healthy and strong….we explain that this will take time and not to expect miracles immediately.
America is filled with unhealthy people with tragic stories of weak immunity. When awakened from the stupor of the FDA drug induced trance….people want immune freedom. This can not be done in an afternoon over a glass of raw milk. It is a life style and life diet change. It is a dedication to nutrition and much more.
As far as Marler is concerned…..the stuff on his blog is crap. The pictures and CDFA inspectors reports he is referring to are not in our creamery. He is a pathetic liar. A pitiful bottom dwelling scum sucker. When we sued CDFA last year…CDFA circled their wagons and tried as hard as they could to make OPDC look bad. Now Marler uses the CDFA inspectors reports from 14 months ago to try and hurt us….
So much for a trial in court. Marler likes trying his cases in the Media and on blogs with evidence he invents.
OPDC is clean enough to pass less than 10 coliform counts and zero pathogens. OPDC refused to be a sterile place. Dr. Ron Hull showed that ( in Australia ) super clean creameries actually have listeria more than 60% of the time. We need organic acid producing bacteria in our bodies and our environments to control listeria…if not we get these bad pathogens. OPDC has never had a home grown listeria ever detected.
I could maybe even like CP….I still want you to come sit by me so I can share with you how America could be a better place if we all had robust immunity. Thanks to the FDA policies this will be very difficult. FDA efforts force immune depression upon us all.
Our government has labeled campylobacter and now we have a fear complex. This complex makes fortunes for the media and those that sell drugs and dispense them.
I rest my case.
Mark McAfee
When Marler cries fire when there is none…that is a crime. He even starts fires when there are none just because he needs fires to fight.
It is a self serving crime and is engineered to create histeria and fear.
Fear that he needs to feed his greedy profession. The greater the fear the easier it is bluff insurance companies and get his huge unearned checks. It is a fabricated irrational fear that herds the sheepeople into a frenzy so he can rule their minds and take their money.
It weakens America….it is selfish and unjust.
Mark McAfee
The dairy in CO was shut down yesterday,.before the test results were back. 8 of 11 people diagnosed with campy were reported to consume milk from this dairy. We (including the health dept) don’t have the facts yet. But the health dept took action anyway. The rest of us will wait and see.
If campy is found, I would love to interview those who became ill. Questions that came from comments on this blog; like were they on anti-biotics before becoming ill? Did they recently start consuming raw milk? What was the primary source of their diet? Why did the other consumers not become ill?
If campy is not found, I intend to extract apologies to a dairy falsely accused.
-Blair
http://aac.asm.org/cgi/content/full/44/2/267
The most common source of campy is eating or handling uncooked commercial chicken, (50% of case studies), or tainted water (8%), but even pet owners are susceptible (6%). Raw milk to a lesser degree (5%). http://tinyurl.com/c9gcj5
Alternative treatments include antimicrobial foods (but always listen to your body!):
Garlic
http://adc.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/81/3/278
Kefir:
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14917445
Colloidal silver:
http://www.asktom-naturally.com/colloidal-silver-04.html
Caprylic acid (found in butter, coconut oil, and other animal fats)
http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=228813
Oil of Oregano
http://www.naturalnews.com/024685.html
-Blair
Are the majority really afraid to look past the blinders they are wearing? Or is it the small effort to actually look and ask questions? No wonder so many have limited vision and knowledge. Mom, used to say that people aren’t thinking for themselves, she was so right.
Mark, you’ve changed your bottles. I haven’t seen your kefir up here yet, or I may be looking in the wrong places?
"The dairy in CO was shut down yesterday,.before the test results were back. 8 of 11 people diagnosed with campy were reported to consume milk from this dairy. "
Wow, and how long was it known that the nuts had samenella? 6 months? Yet the test results aren’t back. Go figure.. Blair, asking more questions of those 11 so far ill, with the campy, would gain further knowledge towards finding answers. Will they be asked? Or should I say, will they be allowed to be asked?
I am very interested in crafting public health education messages. Mark, what do you tell your clients? Clearly, raw milk might carry pathogens that might hurt someone without a perfect immune system – you agree on that point. How do you communicate your message as a balance between risk and benefit?
It still seems obvious that good sanitation is the key in producing safe raw milk. Screw that up, and along comes Marler…
Following the CA situation, it would appear that no dairies have gone out of business….and, there have been no outbreaks/illnesess since the inception of the 10 coliform limit. Those standards are probably a real pain in the cow butt to follow, but seems like they are keeping outbreaks at bay (and the lawyers).
Blair – I understand your defensiveness. But, it is possible that no campy will be isolated from the milk – no smoking gun. Yet, if these patients have only one thing in common – raw milk from a single dairy….that is a link. I hope all the patients get better quickly and this just passes.
One more thought…the worst thing any food company can do is to minimize the suffering of a consumer that got sick from their food, especially if there is pretty darn good evidence it was their food (I’ve seen the 06 reports here and the links on the lawyer blog…don’t want to cause flames, but it was clearly raw milk, not spinach).
Perhaps it would be good to take a different approach if (when) The Bad Thing Happens involving raw milk in the future…especially, concerning the patients…apologize for messing up, and try to learn from the past lest history repeat itself. In the small farmer situation, can this be done without insurance companies, lawyers, etc? I think so, but not if denial…and de-humanizing the people behind the illnesses – is the standard operating procedure. Back to work on peanuts and the people who really don’t care. It would be good if raw milk showed some concern about food safety compared with those big companies that only care about the bottom line.
California has so many California Grade A raw milk dairies that if only 2 were shut down, then there would be NONE. Raw milk is so popular here that there would have to be some really egregious abuse of the regulations not likely since the producers really are conscientious. CDFA must settle for harassment.
However, if you have been eating the SAD and your body has been filled with preservatives, additives, antibiotics and processed food in general, or if you have a chronic disease, your body may not be ready for raw milk. Before introducing raw milk into your diet, it would be wise to start eating whole, unprocessed organic foods. Also add organic yogurt and kefir to begin building up the good bacteria in your digestive track. Adding high quality probiotic capsules to your diet will also help immensely. Eat like this for about 3 months before transitioning to raw milk.
cp
I like the tone and the substance of this comment. Thank you.
If most of your posts sounded like the above (positive suggestions as to what specific changes could be made), I think your opinions could / would garner a lot more respect and support from readers here.
Salud.
Do we have any evidence (strong evidence?) that a coliform limit if 100 would be any less effective (than a 10 coliform limit) at keeping illnesses and the lawyers at bay?
Im not aware of any and it would reduce the number of times that raw milk products fail to reach store shelves.
While the Co authorities are investigating the dairy…someone should be investigating the authorities. This after all could be another case of you are sick if you are a raw milk drinker and you are not counted if you are not…
The details of what the health department is doing, the results they have gotten, and the actions they’ve taken from these results, should be made public. The ‘russian roulette’ crowd should be getting the same level of scrutiny that the farm is….
http://www.lewrockwell.com/schmidt/schmidt16.html
This author seems to like what the FDA sardonically warns against. And yes it is raw dairy so the antiraw dairy folks can just ignore the link.
Its written a bit on the lighter side so will be enjoyable for the all freedom loving proraw dairy advocates after all the recent dubious posts.
The milk bottles have the required warning label that states the answer to your question quite clearly as does Claravales bottles. Mark, as many others on this blog, have stated numerous times; you are what you eat, the SAD along with all the other added chemicals that has been forced upon us and the environment causes a supressed immune system. The words that I’ve read here have been to improve the immune system and many here believe that consuming raw dairy (among other foods) is a way to improve the immune system.
Any food may carry a "pathogen". Sterilizing food is not the answer. Finding out why some are affected and others aren’t would be a major key in reducing adverse affects.
Speculation is not "pretty darn good evidence". That ’06 incident has been beat to death here. We all will believe what we want. Didn’t one of them that is suing not even have the e-coli? Indeed, what terrific evidence..not. Perhaps it was the osmosis that occured?
"The details of what the health department is doing, the results they have gotten, and the actions they’ve taken from these results, should be made public. "
"but not if denial…and de-humanizing the people behind the illnesses – is the standard operating procedure."
Words such as this pop up every so often. Denial? Who denied that illness could occur? And if so, what was the content of the denial? What was the accusation?
De-humanizing the the people behind the illness? Who said what that was De-humanizing? Please be specific. Wow, those who exploited the kid on the internet should be ashamed of themselves, that was De-humanizing.
"It would be good if raw milk showed some concern about food safety"
In what way are they not showing concern for food safety?
http://www.goupstate.com/article/20090406/ARTICLES/904061029/1083/NEWS01
I am strongly opposed to doing nothing (denying the outbreak).
I agree with Daniel Webster, who said this: A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures.
That certainly doesnt mean there is never an appropriate role for a third party when illness and food consumption are linked, but again, paradigms rule, and I personally do not buy the current germ paradigm. I am therefore extremely suspicious of actions taken by our government bureaucracies to produce safety. I think we are probably seeing evidence of inappropriate actions now in Colorado, as a minor infection has been treated as a crisis, and in the process the natural road to good health has once again been detoured.
Friends of mine recently took some pains to expose their young daughters to varicella. As Im sure you know, this was common practice before a vaccine became available, and in my mind, is still preferable to an injected vaccine. (The illness is generally less severe in children than adults, the immunity resultant of experiencing the illness is better than with the vaccine, and the risk of vaccination side effects is eliminated.) Similarly, exposure to campylobacter can be a very positive thing, since the illness is almost always self-limiting, and good immunity is the result. This is part of the jigsaw puzzle that is health. Living soils, clean, natural food, raw food, limited exposure to chemical toxins, and so on, are all important pieces of that puzzle as well. They work together in synergy.
The little girls with varicella, by the way, did get the disease, and did very wellI am convinced they did well at least in part because they are being raised lovingly in a natural way. But the powers that be continually stand in the way of those who choose to behave as they did, even if that behavior demonstrably and significantly improves health. It has gotten to the point now where our experts are virtually convinced that true health is unachievable. If health were really the goal the bureaucracy would be far, far more interested in why some people can carry a so-called pathogen without ill effects. Instead, they speak only of mistakes by dairies, improper sanitization, and the need for bureaucratic and medical intervention. Also, and not incidentally, the fear mongering is a prelude to the removal of basic civil rights. (The action taken in Colorado prohibiting access to milk owned by the cow share owners is particularly meaningful to me because it is perilously close to some bureaucrat telling me that me I cannot drink milk from my family cow.)
The current paradigm is, to me, akin to discovering that a pogo stick can take you from here to there, and deciding then to bounce across the country with it. H L Mencken put it this way: An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup.
http://wholefoodusa.wordpress.com/category/4-m-e-u/raw-milk-and-milk-products/
4 minute video hear the voice and see the face of a brave raw milk dairy farmer our friend [or ogre to some] Mark relate how customers demanded RAW MILK and would pay any price for the product. Why do I and many customers drive for hours and pay any price to obtain raw milk are we stupid or maybe we have performed the ultimate test and recovered and reclaimed our health by consuming this modern day demon rum called RAW MILK?
I have stated before that I would do what I can to ensure that all the antiraw dairy folk have the freedom of choise to say no to raw dairy and ask if they would fight for my freedom to freely choose raw dairy. No answer as yet so I assume the antiraw dairy types DO NOT WANT US TO HAVE THE FREEDOM TO CHOOSE AND THAT IS TYRANNY IS IT NOT ?
I am not sure how OPDC can improve on a perfect record of zero pathogens ever found in our raw milk ( the only pathogen ever detected by CDFA was campy in one sample of some raw cream last year and the milk it came from was negative and there were zero illnesses… the positive test could not be repeated ). That is a perfect record for our raw milk.
The campy was found after the less than 10 coliform standard was established…so much for the less than 10 standard being the saving force????
FYI…we do not pass all of our less than 10 tests. We struggle continuously to achieve that rediculously low level. We get from less than 10 to more than 50. That is the range and it has zero to do with pathogens.
Remember this….our coliforms do not arise from the cows. When we take samples directly from the cows "out of the milk line" we get less than 10 nearly all the time. When we test finished product that is when the levels are much higher. So the coliforms are not from feces. They are from the pumps, lines, the air and minute residual water in the milk lines….CDFA was wrong. Colfiorm increases are not a fecal contamination issue.
We never promise or guarantee that no pathogens will ever be found in our raw milk. Or that an illness will not occur when drinking raw milk.
No food can guarantee perfect food safety. Pasteurized milk killed three 18 months ago and spinach, hot peppers, peanut butter and pistacios have sickened and killed many. These are the signs of worsening immune depression in America. These are the signals that tell the alert consumer to start drnking more raw milk to avoid the immune depression that kills.
What we do guarantee is that if you drink raw milk with its biodoversity of good beneficial bacteria your immune system will improve and you can feel much more confident that if a bad bug does come along….you will be much safer and probably immune to it because you have made a habit of eating its cousin in your cup of delicious raw milk.
That is exactly what I tell people all day long. Raw milk consumption is a consciuos deliberate effort to improve immunity and health.
Our raw fluid milk track record is perfect on pathogens….we will keep working every day to assure that this continues. We will also continue to educate every day and everyday improved immunity and health increases the number of raw milk drinkers.
Remember that the cleanliness of milking is a very small part of overall raw milk safety.
The bigger and more important part is making sure that the environment of the cows is producing pathogen free manure etc. You want the right bugs in the corrals and pens and pastures. Thats what is missing so often. Milking is not a sterile process….nor should it be. Thats what shut down Alta Dena. They just relied on super clean milking while their cows spent their lives on piles of manure and under shades and being treated with antibioitics and eating grain. Clean milking practices are a small part of the totality of raw milk safety.
My bet is that the CO campylobacter illnesses are grossly overstated and that most all of the cow owners have recovered long ago and want their raw milk.
Mark McAfee
Once again, talk is cheap. Take the high road provide written information on your website to customers about the importance of a healthy immune system prior to trying raw milk.
I disagree about your perfect pathogen record, but that is irrelevant to this discussion. This discussion is about customers being completely informed (about pros and cons of raw milk consumption) prior to making a decision to drink raw milk.
These are Sally Fallons words:
The official government position: raw milk is inherently dangerous and should be consumed by no one, especially not by pregnant women, children, the elderly and those with compromised immune systems.
A few sentences later, she takes the position that people need access to raw milk, especially for those who need it mostpregnant women, growing children, the elderly and those with compromised immune systems.
The truth about raw milk and who and when they should be drinking it is in the middle of these two statements. Take action to bridge this gap. You own the largest raw milk dairy in the nation. Set the standard. Show the government officials you are not afraid to speak the truth. Fear does not guide youtruth does.
cp
you can’t beat mother nature nor out do her nor hold her at bay for some contrived human ideal of what we want her to become or how we want her to behave.
to think and argue that one who was damaged or compromised by modern technology and our corporate systems must first use those same broken systems to get healthy first and before one starts listening to mother nature and actually eating as humans are supposed to starkly shows how nieve and unthinking such a notion is.
if you decide you’re unhealthy from the SAD then stop eating the SAD period. locate and buy real food, learn to cook it well, eat lots of it raw. expect some runny stools. an occational upset feeling. maybe even a week of "food poisioning illness" you’re body is an amazing healing machine if given the chance, in a short time you’ll begin getting ill less and less, including "colds" "flu" "aches and pains" "headaches" and all the rest….
but only if you drop the SAD drop the pharma-crap and consume real "old fashioned" foods.
it’s really not complicated at all…. grow a garden, pick a vegatable wipe off the "dirt" (earth) with your hand and eat it. no need to scrub the poor thing to sterility at all.
so many have lost contact with the earth that they are now allergic to it. if they don’t come to grips with the errors of their ways and re-establish close contact with her they really have no hope of ever being really healthy again.
those of you who see pathogens in dirt or manure (really they are the same thing) are the ones most lost and the ones that need to be ignored if one really wants to learn what mother nature is and where we fit into her bussom.
that which does not kill me makes me stronger applies to both mental and physical stresses. get strong, get healthy, eat some dirt.
if someone is trying to scare you. look for their motive.
if someone says you have got to deal with lifes risks in your own way. ask that person what they think and pay attention if they choose to answer.
The dance that is occurring between raw milk farmers and government safety agencies will someday require a compromise, which will be in the form of some sort of regulation. From everything that I have read, small farmers are hurt the most by regulations because of the cost factor involved. Why go down this road if you dont have to?
If you take the high road and provide information to your customers about the possibility of pathogens being in the milk (along with the illness that can be experienced) and education about immune health prior to drinking raw milk, you are the one that gets to be in control. No one is in the position of telling you what you have to do.
How much money would it cost you to post this type of information on your website? Zero! How much would it cost you to pass out flyers with the same information at farmers markets? Very little.
Why wait to be regulated? Be the regulator. You are a humble man and dont boast of the power you have within the raw milk community, but you do have a lot of power. Other farmers will follow your lead. They will see the wisdom of this type of choice.
cp
I invite you to write a statement that is fair, balanced and informative that I would post at our website that does the following:
Educates new raw milk consumers about the risk of a depressed immune system in the USA. Enerates the deaths from and the risks of food outbreaks and superbug infections all associated with immune depression.
Educates people about why common foods in America are killing Americans.
Educates people about the benefits of consuming raw milk and its biodiverse bacterial cultures to strengthen immunity.
Educates new raw milk consumers about the potential risks from bacteria that can be found in raw milk ( and other foods and sources ) and also addresses the precautions taken to mediate these risks.
Educate people that have weakened immunity on how to strengthen it by eating well and drinking raw milk.
This is your chance to provide me intellengent feedback that I will act upon.
Lets work together to make America safer and healthier and stronger.
I am not as crazy as some people think….I am far crazier. I am working in cooperation with a person I have never met and I do not even though their name. Could be John Sheehan for all I know. You will be known for what you write and how we work together. I am soundly reasonable and I want your cooperation.
Mark McAfee