I thought this symposium on raw milk Sunday sponsored by the American Veterinary Medical Association (described in my previous post) would be a tame affair. But food poison lawyer Bill Marler has signaled he’s coming with machine guns blazing. He posted his PowerPoint presentation planned for Sunday on his blog (click on the blue page below the introductory text to launch the PowerPoint presentation), and three slides in particular suggest he has trained his legal guns on the Weston A. Price Foundation.
After running through a tutorial on the legalities of liability for raw milk illnesses (comparative fault, liability waivers, etc.) slide 13 is headed, “Trade Association Liability” and says, “The crux of trade association liability is whether consumers rely on the association’s information and expertise.”
The next slide, #14, is headed, “The ‘Price’ of Weston A. Price’s Prominence” and a copy of the foundation’s Real Milk page is shown.
Just for good measure, slide #15 argues that cow share agreements (promoted by the foundation) “seek to avoid bans on unlicensed sale of raw milk” and are “not a valid interpretation of many states’ licensing requirements.” Pouring more oil on the fire, slide #16 recaps the “case just finished” in which two Marler clients sued Organic Pastures Dairy Co.
Marler has apparently taken offense previously about suggestions on the Weston A. Price Foundation’s site that raw milk is healthy for children. Now he seems to be suggesting the foundation can be potentially held liable for illnesses to children under “trade association liability.”
Guess I have two immediate questions: Is this a new front in the FDA/CDC/state ag agency political war on raw milk? In other words, “trade association liability” becomes a new front in the war to put a lid on the raw dairy supply that includes harassing dairy farmers with phantom findings of listeria, intimidating them with bogus search warrants, and breaking up buying clubs.
Or is this a potential new cash flow opportunity for Marler? The raw dairy farmers he goes after often don’t have very deep pockets, and there may or may not be lucrative product liability insurance policies from retailers. So go after a fast-growing foundation, and the Constitutional guarantee of free speech.
There should generate some interesting discussion at the Sunday symposium.
I couldn’t find anything on the linked AVMA webpage that you referenced and that would lead me to the outline of Bill Marler’s presentation or to his slides .
Any further help?
David
Let me present my brief.
Ive consumed raw milk for over fifty years, no illness.
Ive raised nine children on raw milk, no illness.
I sold raw milk to over a dozen families over a period of thirty five years who raised their children on it, no illness.
I have had busloads of school children come and visit the farm to which I fed raw milk, no illness.
Over the years exchange students have come from Thailand, Africa, India, Ireland and England to live and work with us on the farm and drank raw milk, no illness.
Every long weekend in August for over thirty years we had a family reunion where children and adults drank raw milk, no illness.
Friends and relatives often come to the farm and visit and drink raw milk, no illness.
Just this past week my wifes bothers children came from the city of Toronto for a weeks visit as they have done for the last several years and drink plenty of raw milk, no illness.
Being on the milk committee I hosted committee meetings several times a year. All who attended these meetings drank raw milk, no illness.
———
As Ive told many Holstein Friesen milk producers during the milk is milk campaign and the attempt to assimilate all milk as one, if I wanted to drink water I would simply go to the faucet and turn on the tap. This article from Mercolas website (below) more than vilifies my position and suggests that drinking milk from these prodigious beasts could be detrimental to ones health.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/07/09/The-Devil-in-the-Milk.aspx
Ken Conrad
Too bad he and others don’t take offense about all the other assaults on the children and the population. WooHoo fast/processed phoods are acceptable for our children, also the pushing of "medications", etc.
Out of all the anti-anxiety drugs RX’d how many are also sent to therapy? Giving a pill isn’t going to teach anyone how to cope with whatever is the cause of thier problem, it is a poor bandaid that doesn’t work, only causes other side effects. I don’t hear any screaming about that, and it is much more prevailant that raw dairy.
It looks more and more like tptb have a need to control the population. Why is that?
Bill Marler posted information about this book at will be released on July 14th. It is called "Microcosm: Ecoli and the New Science of Life" by Carl Zimmer. I thought you would be interested in reading it.
http://www.ecoliblog.com/2009/07/articles/e-coli-outbreaks/science-writer-carl-zimmer-speculates-about-cow-to-cookie-mystery/
cp
The very title of that book, Microcosm: E. Coli and the New Science of Life, neatly explains one of the reasons why all these regulations and lawsuits are inherently evil.
Science changes.
I don’t see where he has experience as a university professor or a PhD, so it appears his essays aren’t very worthy of consideration. His job is as an editer, so should his "opinion" be disqualified as non-valid?
I addressed the idea of reading the book to MIGUEL because of his interest in E.coli. By the responses, I guess it is assumed that it is about pathogens (Im sure part of the book is), but I wasnt referring to pathogenic E.coli.
Go to amazon.com and read the pages of the book they have available. You will see what Im talking about and why I though miguel would enjoy reading it. I know Im viewed as the enemy (and so is Bill Marler), but it shouldnt taint your opinion about a book that might have great information.
cp
the milk processors need to create fear, and more so in these days. now that individuals are waking up to the flaws of science based sterile phoods and their ill effects on health the move toward real food threatens their business model.
the marlers of the world simply ride the fear wave to make money for themselves. the lykes of the world are simply captured gov’t workers indoctrinated into the religion of doing big businesses bidding.
i do believe that given time and good planning real milk could out sell processed milk on a gallon by gallon basis. it may take years or decades to shift over and it would require a truly local infastructure to be a reachable goal, but big business will fight tooth and nail all the way. big business must prevent this and derail the local food movement at all cost.
it’s up to millions of individuals to derail big agra business from snuffing out this real food, local movement by refusing to purchase their factory farmed foods. but like "organic" standards being userped by big business local foods are being whittled away at by companies insisting their national brands are really local because they contract from "local" factory farms somewhere.
milk processors need to be afraid, local farms all over are diversifing. it may take more work for the farmer but s/he can again become a real farmer instead of a part-time farmer who needs to hold down a "real" job to pay the bills while they pharm monoculture corn and soy for tyson, smithfield et el mega corporations who, once they dominate a region can lower the price they pay the pharmer simce they now own the regional market.
small poly farms must be exempted from mega corporate regulations. local milk is the keystone to breaking the corporate stranglehold on local food. local milk allows a farmer to pay expenses and grow diversified products. milk is the lifeblood of the local food movement. if milk can be controlled local farms can be stunted and snuffed out.
as long as those in control can keep the focus on safety by denying the existence of small, safe, local, grass based dairy and insisting all raw milk is as dangerous as thet produced by factory pharms they can twart the movement. it has got to be a rights issue first and foremost, as a rights issue small farms have a chance to get a foot hold into being a sustainable livelyhood. once there small farms will be unstoppable as the answer to america’s health and well being.
fear and intimidation are powerful weapons, marler wields them with abandon but only becasue big business manufactured them to begin with. but now more and more folks are facing bigger fears of failing health and their small children facing a lifetime of big pharma solutions of symptom suppressing drugs. that’s real fear. i don’t think tptb have grasped that yet… in time i think they will….
If Bill Marler reads this kind of information will he eventually see that there is a common source to our "problem" with food poisoning?
The point is made that ecoli is well equipt to adapt to all kinds of new situations.
Some of these adaptations can be dangerous for some people.
What is the common connection that food poisoning cases all have and what is changing that has resulted in ever increasing numbers of illnesses?
Carl Zimmer focuses on ecoli,but he could just as well been talking about salmonella,campylobacter,or any other of the families of bacteria that have members that increasingly are blamed for illness.
We often suspect that centralized processing facilities are the source of those dangerous bacteria,but there are also cases of food poisoning that don’t involve centralized processing directly.
Farming practices have been changing gradually ,for a century,from practices that worked with the life in the soil to practices that result in the destruction of soil life.When the existence of life in the soil is threatened ,naturally,we are selecting for the forms of life that are most hardy and most adaptable.When we use farming practices that disrupt and attack the normal soil microorganisms,we are changing the communities of soil microbes from those beneficial to ourselves to those that are dangerous to our health.
When we fertilize our fields with wastes that contain antimicrobial agents,spread by massive tractors hauling tanks that weigh 45 tons ,often when the soil is wet,the result is to effectively sterilize the soil except for the most hardy and adaptable microorganisms. Add to that a few applications of herbicides or plowing the soil to expose the microorganisms to sunlight and the community of organisms in the soil is for all practical purposes destroyed.Not unlike what happens when milk is pasteurized.
These hardy microbes are now the dominant members of a new soil microbial community that inhabits the soil where our food is grown.There are no checks and balances,no beneficial bacteria that hold these opportunistic bacteria in check.
When these tomatoes,peppers or whatever go to the centralized processing facility to be sterilized for safety,they are already contaminated,not just on the surface but inside. Washing them or soaking them in some new antibacterial only assures that those hardy ,resistant bacteria have less competition for the nutrients in the food and so increase even more in numbers.
Carl Zimmer makes the point that ecoli is clever at adapting to a new situation.Does he recognize that farmers have the ability to control all of these potentially dangerous microbes simply by using farming practices that encourage abundant and diverse soil life?Stop these "new" microbes from being dominant in our soil,you won’t find them in our food.
You are missing the point. I am not disparaging the book. I am merely pointing out that its very title should warn off those of you determined to regulate the world for its own good (as well as warn off those who feel justified attacking with lawsuits those who dont agree with their line). Regulations and lawsuits are often pushed along by "science," but if science is so reliable, how then can we entertain the thought of a New Science?
Science is anything but static, anything but uniform. We are led to believe that science is a god, always right, always fair. But anyone who reads knows that science can be, and often is, warped by ideology, and by the desire for power and money. (Even when there is no nefarious motive behind the development of a theory or a conclusion, there is always the possibility of the science being simply wrong.) Certainly its not difficult to find scientists with competing opinions, and history is riddled with lone scientists who were scorned in their time but are now considered geniuses.
Rule-makers and scientistsoften wrong, never in doubt.
Lykke,
The easy way to get out of an argument is to quote a study.
You might be interested in a book called "Teaming With Microbes"
http://books.google.com/books?id=sslymTtMR-kC&dq=teaming+with+microbes&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=OMBXSteWBefBtwe51eHdCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4
It is about probiotics and prebiotics for the soil,working towards the goal of abundant diverse life in the soil to maximize the health and nutritional quality of the plants grown in that soil.It is about plants,but the ideas and principals can also be applied to our digestive system microbes as the food we eat and the microbes in our gut correspond to the soil that the plant gets its nutrients from.
Nope, I wasn’t comparing the book to anyone. I was commenting that the writer did not have a PhD nor was he a prof at any university. So his "opinion" may be questionable and/or invalid in the scientific community as per the allusion on previous posts.
"I addressed the idea of reading the book to MIGUEL"
If you don’t wish anyone but whom you "ddress" the post to, to respond, then perhaps taking it to email would be better.
"When we fertilize our fields with wastes that contain…."
What a horrid visual you’ve painted.
Anyone who has lived in the countryside for at least the past two decades has to be appalled at the changes that have taken place.The fragrance of wildflowers and new mown hay used to be overpowering at times ,now it is the stench of farm chemicals and factory farm manure that we most often smell.Liquid manure drips on the roads as the manure tanks are sometimes hauled 5 miles from the factory manure lagoon to be spread.Residences and this type of agrabizness are so obviously incompatible that local politicians have suggested that we should zone parts of the county as strictly agricultural(no residences allowed).
Unfortunately, I have to agree with you. It is very sad, and deplorable what is done to the environment and our food system. I don’t think about the farms usually. Out of sight, out of mind I guess. I did have a family member of a patient who lives on the edge of a nearby town, in a new housing development, complain of the smell of the cows and the noise.(less than 20 cows) I informed her that that farm had been there for well over 100yrs, she responded that it was time the farm moved as the houses were there now. I don’t understand that kind of thinking.
Years ago, when I had first went to Tampa,FL, I was working in Brandon (east side of Tampa) and the 1st yr there, you were overwhelmed by the orange blossom smell, it was sickening sweet just opening my door. I didn’t notice it the following yrs I was there, Brandon was being built up, 100s of homes going up…supposedly progress. The orchards were shrinking.
Producers welcome changes to raw milk regulations. by Steve Zind
http://www.vpr.net/news_detail/85336/
The Book should have been called " The Devil in the Dead Milk". It is very unfortunate that the author did not research the A-2 Corporation more carefully before dumping this concept on the World Stage.
Dr. Tom Cowan and I had a long talk about A-2 milk earlier this year. He was concerned that his discussion of A-2 milk would become an issue at OPDC.
Well it has.
At OPDC we have tried for three years to get the A-2 Corporation to test our milk. They were not interested three years ago or last year. Now they are out of business and will not permit access to their patented A-2 Test.
So we are screwed!! You can not test for A-2 genetics with the patented test locked up and now everyone is reading a book about how critical it is….
I have been working with a Lab in EU that says that they can do a test to verify A-2 genetics but this is very expensive and the lab is very new to this test. We will see how this goes…but for now A-2 testing is a wishful thought that literally can not be done.
One more thing…A-2 company was all about pastuerized A-2 milk. Not sure how vital and alive that product was or is. A-2 or A-1… I will take my grass fed organic milk raw….thank you very much.
Dead milk whether it is A-2 or A-1 is still dead milk. As for A-2 raw milk that is a pioneering proposition and OPDC is working hard to get this done.
CP…I am still waiting for your thoughts on your ( now my ) proposed Kefir, Raw Milk and Pastuerized milk pathogen recovery test. Are you interested in participating?
Please let me know your ideas….I am still waiting. I really want this test to a cooperative effort. You made the suggestiong and I followed up.Yet you do not respond.
Mark McAfee
=Blair
We could probably save over 20,000 lives or more every year in the USA by reducing speed limits to 30 mph. But is this reasonable? About 40,000 people die on USA highways every year compared to CDC estimates of about 5,000 per year from food borne illness. And most of that food borne illness is from factory farm and industrial food production. Marler needs to get his priorities straight.
David and Amanda….good luck today with the vets….we look forward to your reports.
http://www.marlerblog.com/2009/07/articles/lawyer-oped/avma-conference-raw-milk-consumption-legal-implications-of-raw-milk-and-case-studies/
The same anti-lawyer, anti-civil justice system is raging over at my blog too. I know, I know, people do not like lawyers, people do not like lawsuits (unless they are their own) – yawn. David, I look forward to meeting with you today. Hope you can join all the speakers for dinner.
I have read two hypothesis about why so many people are allergic to milk.They both seem to involve histidine.A1 milk is supposed to have a histidine amino acid in position 67of the casein protein,while A2 has proline in that position.The cow’s genes are said to determine the type of protein the milk will contain.I have also read that when the bacteria allisonella histaminiformans is in the cow’s rumen it will convert histidine to histamine .
"Recent work indicates that the rumen has a previously unrecognized bacterium that produces histamine, A. histaminiformans. A. histaminiformans is a highly specialized bacterium that is only able to convert histidine to histamine. Because A. histaminiformans is a highly pH-resistant bacterium, it is better able to compete with other histidine-utilizing bacteria when the pH is low. A. histaminiformans could not be isolated from cattle fed hay, but it is found at high numbers in cattle fed dairy cattle rations. The ability of A. histaminiformans to grow in the rumen is promoted by acidic pH and a nutritional factor derived from silages (particularly alfalfa silage)."
Is the whole A2 milk theory just another case of blaming milk allergy on the cow’s genetics,when that might only be a part of the story?Could a cow with A2 genetics still produce milk with problems if it is fed the wrong way?Could a cow with A1 genetics that is fed differently produce non allergic milk.Since cows, like people, are symbiotic communities of organisms,only 1/10 of the genes of the whole organism we call a cow are fixed at birth.The rest are acquired from the environment.
Then there is the whole question of what pasteurization does to the milk.
I suspect that the mega dairies would like us to believe that pasteurized A2 milk from cows raised on mega farms and fed dairy rations would solve everyone’s milk intolerance problems. It’s an easy fix for them compared to figureing out how to keep 4000 cows on pasture and milk them three times a day.
When all of the research is done and interpreted I will bet that stress,improper feeding,and pasteurization are at least 9/10 of the reason for milk intolerance.
The best way to deal with situations like that is to go ahead and present what you have as if he isn’t there. Let him "take the show," and be straight forward and honest yourself. Then let people go home and think about it. They’ll figure it out. Flashy doesn’t always gain respect. People pay attention to flashy, but they vote for what they actually have regard for. There’s a difference.
I’ll tell you that when I present the fact to my coworkers that I cannot share my homemade chevre I’m having for lunch, with them, because it is illegal, they get pissed off. It isn’t at me.
People who do such things – throw a bomb into a peaceful room – tend to bury themselves in their own fervor, and overlook important details in what is really being discussed – details that people who don’t really deeply care about that fervor pay attention to.
Lykke, I sing and perform with my guitar. Someone once told me that I wasn’t really that good. I already know that. Thing was, the person who told me that, who was more skilled in musical instruments than I, was apparently less pleasant to listen to.
Lykke, you keep bringing up the "respect" issue. Two weeks ago, I was calling around trying to find a minister to marry an acquaintance. One of the people I talked with was so focused on this acquaintance’s lifestyle – not married, with baby, living together – that their greatest concern was that most ministers might not want to have anything to do with that. Several others, and consequently many more people, knew and gave me names of several ministers, and when I called and gave the same information, the ministers themselves were very amicable about the idea. They guy concerned about the "respect" issue – he was dead wrong.
Your impressions of who respects what just don’t really mean much to me. What scientists? What government officials laugh? I know a few of those. You’re not talking about Florez, Strickland, Dominick or Wilson. Name them so I know who you’re talking, already. Whose respect am I trying to get? Do I care? And if they don’t respect ME, who employs them, you best tell me who they are so I can vote them and their appointers the heck out. We the people are the government, in case you’ve forgotten that, and despite what some otherwise think. So, out with it.
Isn’t it around 33%-50%?
Mr. Marler, I do believe that some lawsuits are very necessary.
Bryan, I believe the "histamine" is at the cellular level and crosses through the milk via the blood stram, not from the poop. (Though I could be totally wrong) For example:
http://www.nurse.com/ce/CE555/CoursePage/
"A food allergy is an immunologic reaction to a food protein to which a person has become sensitized. Ingesting a food for the first time primes the immune system of susceptible people to produce a class of antibodies called immunoglobulin E, or IgE. Subsequent ingestion of the offending food, which the body now recognizes as a foreign antigen, sets off a complex cascade of events.2,4,6
IgE binds to surface receptors of mast cells (found in connective tissue, bronchi, and GI mucosa) and basophils (a type of white blood cell involved with immune reactions).2,6 Once activated by IgE, mast cells release several potent mediators of inflammation, including histamine, leukotrienes, and cytokines. These chemical mediators stimulate the accumulation of eosinophils, a white blood cell also involved in the inflammatory response. Basophils contain histamine and become mast cells as they enter the tissues as part of the allergic reaction. Histamine triggers vasodilation and capillary permeability, resulting in redness, heat, and swelling in the affected areas. Histamine also causes smooth muscle to contract, which can lead to bronchial constriction and respiratory distress.2,4,6 "
FoodHACCP.com General Food Safety Daily News
Re fees – 33 – 50% – damn lawyers overcharge for bad work.
THIS INSANITY HAS TO END AND END NOW!
THESE ARE THE JIM CROW LAWS OF THE 21th CENTURY!
JUST BECAUSE IT’S A LAW DOESN’T MAKE IT JUST OR RIGHT.
AND WHEN LAWS ARE UNJUST AND DETRIMENTAL TO THE NATION IT IS OUR OBLIGATION TO PROTEST AND REPEAL THESE LAWS.
Small farmers are not the problem, the laws are already slanted in the mega farms favor. In a time of high unemployment they should be encouraging more people to take up farming. Killing small farms increases unemployment, everybody wasn’t meant to work in an office. Small farms are vital to the economy, and vital to those who want real food and not over processed fakes.
It’s so obvious that the whole purpose of these new laws is to break the small farmer and regulate and control the last freedom we really have left, choosing what we eat.
SIGNING A PETITION IS NOT ENOUGH, WE HAVE TO BE WILLING TO PROVE WE ARE SERIOUS AND WON’T BE FORCED DOWN.
WHEN DID THE FDA BECOME GOD?
WHEN DID THE GET THE POWER OF LIFE AND DEATH OVER US?
Yes, life and death, because if you can’t get or eat the foods that are nourishing to our bodies, then we will surely die, of cancer, heart disease, liver failure, diabetes, lupus, asthma, and every other disease.
Limiting us to a few acceptable foods is a slow death sentence of chronic undernourishment and low vitamin and mineral levels needed for healthy life.
We need to face the fact that the government is for us, not to rule us. It’s supposed to be the will of the people not a few federal workers to run, whatever their titles may be.
We need to get out the picket signs and good walking shoes and start protesting at all the federal buildings.
We need civil disobedience, they can’t put all of us in jail or take all of us to court. They are already short handed, lets make them hurt by overworking them. Make them earn those paychecks, let them worry about catching all of us protesters and law breakers who dare to stand up to tyranny.
It doesn’t matter if you are a consumer or a farmer, this is the last straw, the last insult to our freedoms and right to decide what we eat, what we grow and who we get it from.
Thru all history, farming has been the backbone of any society, good food meant a good life.
We already have the milk police making raids, enough is enough!
I’m mad as hell and not going to take it anymore! If the free market listens to us and gives us products we want to buy, the government must surely follow, unless they have darker motives and hidden agendas.
We have the power, we just have to use it!
They are already trying to stop family farms, next will be your backyard garden, I mean what determines what a small farm is? Imagine an agent knocking on your door telling you that your garden is in violation and must be destroyed or pay the fine!
Are we willing to fight for the basic right to eat what we want and take our chances, or give in and be dictated to and restricted to only what the feds will allow?
I HAVE A GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO CHOOSE THE FOOD I PUT IN MY BODY!
NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO DICTATE WHAT I CAN AND CANNOT EAT OR DRINK!
IF I CHOOSE TO TAKE FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR DRINKING RAW MILK, WITH FULL KNOWLEDGE OF THE RISK AND HAZARDS, WHAT LAW CAN THERE BE TO PREVENT IT?
THIS IS NOT A DICTATORSHIP, NOR A PRISON CAMP, IF WE CAN’T CHOOSE SOMETHING AS SIMPLE AS WHAT WE EAT, THEN WE DON’T ;HAVE ANY OTHER RIGHTS, WE ARE PRISONERS IN OUR OWN NATION!