Earth to Houston–we have a raw dairy problem.I used to think Kathy, the farmer who supplies my raw milk, was just making conversation when she’d tell me the details of her “family” of cows—which cows were pregnant, which had given birth, which calves had matured to the point they could become mothers, and which had gone out of and back into milk production. But I now realize, as I read Tim Wightman’s comments on my last post, that she has really been updating me on her closed herd. And it occurs to me I may want to inquire about any plans she has to add outsiders to her herd (though I suspect the answer will be an emphatic, “No!”).
The more I learn about raw milk illnesses, the more I realize how naïve many of us raw milk consumers are. Now, raw milk consumers are experiencing bouts of uncertainty and doubt. In Michigan, for example, shareholders from Family Farms Co-op are scrambling to find new sources of raw milk now that its main source, Forest Grove Dairy, has discontinued distribution. But now, they carry with them a seed of doubt. Which dairies are safest? Which dairies are potentially risky? How can they best assess the dairies?
As a friend of mine might put it: Earth to Houston, we have a raw dairy problem.
Of course, as far as the public health and medical establishments are concerned, we have long had a problem. In their view, whenever people consume raw dairy products, it’s a problem.
But finally, raw dairy proponents are coming around to the view we have a problem. While everyone agrees it’s not the problem the authorities would have us believe, there is a growing consensus that we have a problem, or rather a number of problems.
I should note that these are really problems of success in the sense that they stem from raw milk’s fast-growing popularity. Here are a few of the problems:
— At least some farmers are slipping up in their production of safe raw milk. That doesn’t mean raw milk can’t be produced safely on a consistent basis. Obviously, many dozens of dairies are doing it day in and day out, year after year. But as Tim Wightman of the Farm-to-Consumer Foundation points out in a comment following my previous post, “…there is value in understanding what happened with Dee Creek, The Alexanders, The Zinnikers, and now Forest Grove Dairy.”
–Prominent raw milk proponents remain in denial about not only the nature of the current difficulties, but whether there is even a problem. In my previous post, I quoted a couple of sickened members of the Weston A. Price Foundation expressing concern about the organization’s unwillingness to accept the reality that people can and do become ill from consuming raw milk. Blair McMorran, in a comment following my previous post, says, “I can’t understand the ‘WAPF intimidation’ expressed by the people who got sick. I’ve always understood WAPF’s mantra as ‘Know Your Source.’” Others commenters say they have the same understanding. Unfortunately, WAPF speaks with a forked tongue. The other part of the WAPF mantra, the dominant part, invariably denies the reality of outbreaks at small dairies, and in so doing, in effect blames the victim. After all, if you can’t get sick from a grass-based raw dairy’s milk, you, Mr./Ms. Campylobacter Patient, must have some other problem. As one prime example of the denial that continues, the WAPF still has a long post on its web site authored by its leader, Sally Fallon, casting doubts on the outbreak of illness at Dee Creek in Washington state in 2005—an outbreak that seems clearly to have resulted from contaminated raw milk. “While state officials express confidence that the outbreak was caused by raw milk, they have ignored many facts that call their conclusions into question,” concludes Sally Fallon’s report. Similarly, the organization assumed the denial role for contaminated raw milk in the Zinniker case in Wisconsin last year, when it accused Wisconsin investigators of “bias and inaccuracies,” even though it acknowledged that “DNA test results allegedly found the same strain of C. jejuni in 25 of the patients and manure samples obtained from 14 out of 30 milking cows on the farm…” And for Mark McAfee of Organic Pastures Dairy Co. to revert to saying, following my previous post, that two children likely made seriously ill from raw milk might have gotten sick from spinach is to contradict his own statements in previous comments that the children could well have become ill from his milk, and further the denial sense. Just refer to the previous acknowledgments and leave the entire matter be.
–Reliance on absolutes. Raw milk consumers have been indoctrinated that not only should dairy cows be grass fed, but that anything else in the diet is a contaminant, rendering the milk unfit. Yet there is nothing even approaching conclusive evidence that grass feeding renders raw milk immune from pathogens. And many so-called pasture dairies are feeding their cows at least some grain, even if only for “treats” to get them into the barn for milking.
I suspect that a big part of the illness problem we’re witnessing is the result of growing demands for raw milk, inevitably placing strains on raw dairies’ production capabilities. Tim Wightman suggests in his comment that dairies experiencing outbreaks unwisely responded to increases in consumer demand by introducing animals purchased from a factory system known for problems. “Looking for the best deal has its hidden costs…for the farmer and the consumer, and the very web we depend on,” he says.
The raw dairy community’s defensiveness is understandable, since it’s up against the combined opposition of some of the most powerful interest groups in the country. But the reality is that despite all this opposition, raw milk has gained substantially in popularity. I noticed that Sally Fallon estimated in a Wall Street Journal article that just came out about raw milk that there are now three million drinkers—considerably more than the 500,000 to one million she had been estimating. And she’s probably on target.
It’s precisely because of its success that the raw milk community is now being placed under a microscope by the media and regulators. (A Wall Street Journal blog posting following up on the article accuses proponents of “dismissing warnings about bacterial contaminants…”) The knee-jerk defensiveness in the face of probably outbreaks, which wasn’t noticed when raw milk was a fringe food, just won’t cut it any more now that raw milk is regularly making the media big leagues.
In a truly open market, the marketplace would force the bad dairies out of business. But we don’t have a truly open market—we have one where regulators are in a position to force good dairies out of business for the transgressions of bad dairies.
Therefore, it’s up to the raw milk community to police itself. The Weston A. Price Foundation, as the leading proponent of raw milk, must move from automatically defending raw dairy producers to looking after its consumer members—educating them about finding reliable sources, and coming down on farmers who cut corners to speed or increase production. Maybe there needs to be a raw dairy association, with real authority. If the raw dairy community won’t take the responsibility to watch over its interests, I guarantee that the government will take over this responsibility even more than it already does, and the results won’t be geared toward protecting our rights to access the foods of our choice. ?
We have been raising a closed flock of sheep for four years now and have not lost one of our animals to disease or parasites. In two years we plan to start our sheep dairy and produce quality raw milk cheese. We also raise poultry (Turkey’s and Chicken) and this year every single chick will come from our farm – hatched with a digital incubator. In two years after we acquire duck and geese breeding stock – we will be completely closed to outside animals period. All of our poultry is processed in a state inspected facility and last November our Turkeys were so healthy – the inspector called me personally to tell me that she had never seen such healthy birds.
We don’t seem to have problems with deer now that we have good fences and we trap for raccoons and other predators. There are no cats, rats or mice on our farm as I put our bait stations for rodents and the feral cats don’t come around because there is nothing for them to eat:)
The vector problem has been solved on our farm. All of our livestock is free of disease and are healthy (our vet comes out once a year and visually inspects our sheep, chickens and turkeys – I also have fecal samples of all the above taken and tested twice a year for salmonella, campy, etc – all have come up negative).
Yes, closing a herd can be done. . . it just takes a little longer for the farmer to increase production but the rewards of healthy animals mitigate this somewhat in my opinion.
Here is that comment, from 3/30/07, which IMHO bears repeating:
_____________________________________________________________
What is frustrating to me about this issue is that what so often makes it into the media is so far from the sane middle ground that David writes of. Perhaps it is our nature to want that, I dont know. Whatever the cause, it’s not a healthy predisposition.
Mrs. Martin says The raw milk people say you cant get sick. To whom is she referring? I can only assume that her attention has been drawn by marginal zealots, because in my circles (which I believe represent the vast majority of those who support raw milk consumption) virtually NOBODY believes that you cant get sick from raw milk. The point is that, by any reasonable measure of risk analysis, and in consideration of all known factors, raw milk is an extremely good food choice for most everybody.
Ron Schmid, the naturopathic physician who wrote The Untold Story Of Milk, is one of the strongest (and most vocal) proponents of raw milk. Here is a direct quote from Dr. Schmid to me, discussing raw milk consumption: Of course people are going to get sick.
His statement was true, but if you think that he meant to imply that raw milk is, as a practical matter, unsafe, you misinterpret him. He went on to explain that raw-milk related sicknesses are rare, generally minor, and self-limiting, and must be viewed in the context of other health factors, such as immune strength (which raw foods can improve) and, of course, collection techniques.
Perhaps todays typical American, indoctrinated by lawyers, government, vaccine manufacturers, doctors, and just about everybody else, into into believing they can be protected from all hurtful things, cannot discuss these things sanely. Maybe that helps explain Mrs. Martins awful sense of guilt (I have to live with the fact that I gave my child raw milk that nearly killed him.). I do not mean to disparage Mrs. Martin in any way–cant say even that I wouldnt feel like her in similar circumstances. But I do believe that it is wrong to use her statements as a model. To do so would be to draw broad conclusions from narrow circumstances. Thats bad science, and a bad way to run ones life. Mrs. Martin herself acknowledges that when she indicates that she would not prevent others from making their own minds up about raw milk.
The sane middle is where raw milk proponents will find success. Its where we all should want to be.
_____________________________________________________
Now, for the record, I’d like to say that I’ve been a supporter (generally) of the WAPF for years, and continue to be. I do not (generally) consider the WAPF’s statements to be marginal, and I do not take from them any absolute guarantees about anything. I do, however, find their paradigm more true–more sane–than others, and that is no small thing.
Its called "Food safety."
Just ask the WI Secretary of Agriculture… WE HAVE TO PROTECT OUR $21 BILLION DAIRY INDUSTRY.
Farmers who sell raw milk are viciously prosecuted here, even if they have never made anyone sick (which is the majority of them). Just watch after this raw milk bill passes, as the best farmers are driven into the ground by DATCP, while the irresponsble ones fly under the radar.
Lykke, CP — welcome to America’s Dairyland. Are you coming to the Raw Milk conference on April 10th? Or will you continue to escape your respsonbilities and continue blaming small raw milk producers while the CAFOs get away with murder?
Mary
I believe raw milk is too risky to drink. You believe differently. I dont make you into a villain, why do you try to make me one for my beliefs?
Heres something to mentally digest. I think the leaders of WAPF prey on desperate, small family farmers and convince them to save their farms by selling raw milk. Theyre victimized as much as the customers who become ill. No one wins when there is an outbreak.
No, I wont be attending the conference. Its too far away from where I live.
cp
Thank you Dave Milano! Well spoken! I read Dr. Schimd’s book too – because WAPF recommended it. He goes into some detail about all the pathogens, so I felt like I had a pretty good idea of the risk of drinking raw milk, and I looked for a reliable, clean source. That was 9 years ago, and I’m still learning.
David, the reasoning behind the mantra "Know Your Source" is cautionary, not accusative. Sure we have more to learn, but let’s keep this in perspective. You appear shocked that people are getting sick from raw milk, and issue a call to action. It’s almost as if you think raw milk producers aren’t working hard enough, and that they need "somebody" to regulate things. Careful what you wish for!
Here’s some death stats from a PPT on diet-related deaths (www.cspinet.org/nutritionpolicy/BriefingbookFY04.PPT) from 2003:
1. Heart Disease 710,760
2. Cancer 553,091
3. Stroke 167,661
4. Chronic Lower Respiratory Diseases 122,009
5. Accidents 97,900
6. Diabetes 69,301
7. Pneumonia and Influenza 65,313
8. Alzheimers Disease 49,558
9. Nephritis 37,251
10. Septicemia 31,224
11 Suicide 29,350
12. Chronic Liver Disease/Cirrhosis 26,552
13. High Blood Pressure 18,073
14. Homicide 16,765
(Note – suicide and homocide *are* food-related…There is ample evidence that a poor diet causes mood swings, depression, and violence.)
Raw milk doesn’t look so bad now, does it?
Sure we need to focus on safe handling, healthy animals, etc – and we do – on a shoestring budget.
Food is a notorious topic of conversation lately. Today my neighbor was preaching about acidosis. He was passionate about it. I had to bite my tongue – he doesn’t know half of it yet…
-Blair
This to me, is the kind of communication that ought to happen at every dairy on a regular basis.
-Blair
The FDA and CDC, along with various state regulatory agencies, have come to their senses and decided to live (and act) within constitutional limits placed on government and recognize their proper role of education, not regulation, especially regarding raw milk. Also…
Bill Marler has decided to quit chasing ambulances.
Wait a minute…oh, damn…it’s April 1. I knew it was too good to be true.
BH
NO MICE??? How about the birds and bats?
Animals such as those found in your operation and subject to a natural down to earth management protocol are under little stress and will therefore do well. That being said, extremes if we are not careful will end up biting us in the ass.
Limiting exposure is all well and good however no herd can be completely closed and any attempts to create such an extreme scenario would nurture hidden weaknesses. Diversity of exposure to organisms and genetics is imperative in the natural world.
On the other hand excessive turn around of livestock such as is the case with large intensive dairy, feedlot, swine and poultry operations would represent the opposite scenario. The increased stress that livestock have to cope with in these circumstances is debilitating and can be catastrophic without extensive drug and chemical use.
Ken Conrad
The consumer cannot set standards without the help of competent input, regulators are not necessarily sufficiently informed as they come from a pasteurized world of protocols. Raw milk producers should step up and set real standards and realize that they alone are not able to set the standards because most are sufficiently well educated to do it.
We did have one of those types of farms that bottled cream-line pastuerized milk on the farm. Blue Marble Dairy.
Unfortunately, they were put out of bussiness by DATCP as well.
On Thanksgiving, DATCP issued a press release accusing them of not properly pastuerizing their milk. They tested several batches taken from the store shelf, and one bottle of cream tested phosphotase positive. DATCP told consumers not to drink ANY Blue Marble Milk.
Now, I just recently found out from one our genuins dairy scientists at the Center for Dairy Research, that the phosphotase test is only a reliable indicator of successful pastuerization when the sample is drawn directly from the pastuerizer and tested that day. Apparently the phosphotase enzyme has the ability to "heal" itself and become active again. A positive phosphotase in a final product on the store shelf is apparently NOT neccessarily an indicator of improper pastuerization.
In other words, DATCP’s accusation against Blue Marble Dairy of improper pastuerization was probably wrong. Now the poor farmer is stuck with hundreds of thousands of dollars of expensive bottling equipment, and his reputation has been ruined by overzealous regulators.
Today, the only local single-farm option for pastuerized milk in Wisconsin is Sassy Cow, who homogenize their milk. ICK!
Welcome to America’s Dairyland. The regulatory regime here is wicked and utterly beholden to big dairy processors. It has nothing to do with food safety, and everything to do with keeping small farmers under the iron heal.
THAT is why I demonize you and Lykke, CP — because you perpetuate the illussion that this punitive authoritarian "food safety" BS really has anything to do with protecting consumers. It does not. It is about protecting the dairy processing industry from competition, and the regulators from liability.
It is food fascism.
As for the discussion of raw milk, cause of illnesses, etc., I think that Ron Schmid’s quote from Dave Milano’s response is legitimate and wholly important. Michael Pollan said something similar about food-borne illnesses in either one of his books, or in an interview I read with him. Regardless of how much precaution we take, outbreaks will happen. It’s a fact, unless we want to sterilize everything, and we see now how bad that is. (In a med school class, a study was presented that observed/measured the immune systems of lab rats versus "sewer" rats. It showed that the sewer rats had much more developed and robust immune systems. Now, I am not advocating we all go out and live in a sewer. Rather, I’m just trying to point out that our immune systems will not become robust if they are not challenged. And, yes, we need to be mindful of how we go about that…). The benefit of a local food system is that the outbreak will likely be smaller and more contained, and much easier to trace. My impression of the knee-jerk reaction to immediately exonerate raw milk comes from the fact that a lot of supporters feel they’re constantly attacked for consuming it and advocating for it. I’ve seen plenty of name-calling in blogs and newspaper comments about raw milk supporters, and it disappoints me.
I personally am a raw milk drinker and supporter of it, but I don’t demonize people for drinking pasteurized milk, or any industrialized food for that matter. I do try to educate others on why I’ve made the decision to feed my family what I do. At the end of the day, it’s a personal choice, and I have to respect that.
I read anecdotally that a Wisconsin state representative, who happens to be a dairyman himself (he owns a 1000-cow dairy), is against the proposed legislation to legalize raw milk. He stated that on his farm (1000 cows) they don’t even feed raw milk to the calves because it’s too dangerous. Call me naive, but I was shocked at this. I don’t understand how one cannot see that the system of industrialized dairy is broken if the same species can’t even consume it raw. Mind boggling.
I like what Neville says: "Real progress would be an open training protocol for raw milk producers that extends from animal management practices through to placing milk in a consumers container."
To suggest WAPF which is a membership organization dominated by consumers (and farmers who eat their own food) is insensitive to food safety concerns is ridiculous. Most raw dairy consumers choose it as a perceived safer alternative to mass pasteurized products.
If you are going to chastise us, at least give us the courtesy of a phone call. You know who we are.
This is an excellent post. It is absolutely the case that if WAPF does not step up on this issue, someone else will. There is no one else in a leadership position except the bogeymen, so someone else stepping in does not bode well.
Dear Kimberly,
I wrote a "raw milk white paper" on the topic of competitive exclusion to clarify the research on the point that raw milk kills pathogens so completely and quickly that it is a "uniquely safe" food. I also have a phone line even though I am a homesteader in a remote California forest. With no comment whatsoever from your office, Ted Beals wrote a response to the paper in Wise Traditions that was really more a personal attack than an academic exercise. In the six months since he hasn’t even bothered to send me citations to support his claims.
In any case, I suppose if you want the courtesy of a phone call, perhaps you should give the same courtesy to others.
Once again, kudos to David. There will be more sanitation lapses and more illnesses as long as producers don’t believe they have a problem. In fact, Dr. Beals told them all that raw milk kills pathogens, so why bother keeping the pipes clean or keeping a milk claw from being splattered with shit? Before Beals, Fallon and Schmidt told them the same thing: Raw milk is uniquely safe.
How about a revision: Raw milk is neither uniquely safe nor uniquely dangerous.
Amanda
Middlebury farmer says his milk is safe. by Roger Schnider
Farmer claims independent lab found no contamination of 4 samples he sent to them.
HMMM sure sounds like the very same story that played out here in Pa. over the last few years. Therefore ones freedom of choise becomes even more valuable when it boils down to he said she said. Pick the lab of your choise.
http://www.rebuild-from-depression.com/contact/contact.php
Put "raw milk white paper" in the subject box.
It is a digital paper, so I will get it right to you. The paper received favorable comments by both David Gumpert and Mark McAfee.
Amanda
http://whereismymilkfrom.com/
I am about to look at it now.
Show me someone who doesnt have an occasional doubt and Ill show you an idiot or worse. Doubts, of course, are merely the portal into an open mind, and are emphatically NOT necessarily signs of a crisis.
It is simply silly to proclaim with mathematical certainty anything about such an involved and complicated subject as health. That is exactly why raw milk availability (and GMO labeling, and the forced purchase of medical insurance, or using tax dollars to support allopathic medicine or industrial agriculture, and on and on) are issues of rights! What could possibly demonstrate absolutism and overconfidence better than a group who would interfere with, or even prevent by force of violence, a natural human being from ingesting the foods he wants, or force third-party approval before two human beings can exchange goods or services?
Who is the idiot without doubts in this picture?
three things to keep in mind:
1) when raw milk is inoculated with listeria monocytogenes, the raw milk kills all traces of the l. mono. anywhere from 36 to 52 hours. (raw milk producers would do well to keep their milk in storage for 2 days before distributing it).
2) raw milk is not inherently dangerous. the danger comes from the husbandry practices (or lack thereof) of the farmer (raw milk producers would do well to keep sanitation in mind).
3) raw milk dairy farmers in ohio have been collecting samples of their milk for nearly four years and testing it, thereby accumulating a data base that demonstrates safety (raw milk producers everywhere would do well to collect their own samples and generate their own data base).
know your source is a good mantra. this movement is not going to go away and it will continue to get stronger (and safer).
I’m curious about where your claim about listeria comes from. Sources?
Surely it can’t be that simple. There are a whole host of factors that can influence how well a pathogen can survive in raw milk: The initial population of the pathogen, the characteristics of the milk, the temperatue at which the milk is stored.
Listeria is a faculative anaerobe & pyscrotrophic organism, meaning it can grow in the absence of oxygen, and at very cold temperatures. It is a poor competitor with other organisms at warmer temperatures and under aerobic conditions.
We do need to understand the complexities of the issue. If there is a very heavy listeria load, and the milk is stored at cold temperatures, it may take much longer for the listeria to expire than you propose. Conversely, if it is a smaller intial population of listeria, and the milk is cultured into yogurt or cheese, listeria will be less likely to survive. Listeria stands the least chance when you have a raw milk cheese that is aged and open-air cured at cellar temperatures (~55). (But then you have to start worrying about Staph Aureus, which requires warmth and oxygen to grow)
Why doesn’t the Farm to Legal Defense fund put something together and defend the farmers that have only signed that they will comply with a minimum set of national standards. It was my understanding that program was set up much like the Home School Legal Defense Association, but having been part of HSLDA I had to sign that I would educate my children in certain areas, and not leave them home alone during the school day. I assume that they would not have accepted my application if I had not agreed to do so.
The problem that we are seeing after being in the dairy industry for all of our lives and raw milk producers for some time is that it is hard to learn from these outbreaks because of the two sides of the issue. Yes, people do say "oh, it isn’t the farms fault".
Well, how does another farmer learn from that? When the Dee Creek incident happened WAPF did say to use plastic disposables from then on out because the milk was probably contaminated at a host home by someone. But, when we viewed the pictures online we could see areas that needed improvement for the production of raw milk.
Tim said "there is value in understanding what happened with Dee Creek, The Alexanders, The Zinnikers, and now Forest Grove Dairy. We’ll what did happen there? Reading between the lines I might guess it to be a non-closed herd or outsourcing? Was it faulty equipment? Did someone get manure in the milk? I’ve got customers calling me and saying "what do you think of the Campy story in the news". I can just say I don’t know what happened. We did add Campy to our monthly testing program as a result of the past three outbreaks (confirmed or not). But other than that what more can I do to reduce the possibility (not of course, guaranteeing it will never be found) of it happening on this farm? Someone please share.
We’ve had a couple calls from the people that can no longer get raw milk from Forest Grove Dairy looking for options. One of them commented that cost was an issue because they were getting their milk for $7.00 a gallon (see Tim’s earlier posts on price). They also commented that the farm was going to try to provide milk, and Forest Grove doesn’t supply it anymore because of a FDA issue, no mention of sickness – just an FDA issue.
And….if the Co-op is trying to find more milk for them…where is it going to come from? Hopefully not a farm who is currently shipping milk for pasteurization by PMO standards only to fill the needs of those 250 families without milk. It takes a lot of research, education and different practices to go from the milkman picking up your milk to being responsible (even with a contract) for a product going straight into peoples homes from your farm. Even some grass fed dairies milk should be pasteurized.
As for a national standard, we’re all for it. CO standards would seem to be a good start. We do need unity. It’s no fun and not very sustainable to stand alone. It’s actually tiring and makes shipping milk to Organic Valley (if they were taking any milk now) look good.
BH
http://www.JuicyMaters.com
It’s like darned if you do, darned if you don’t
If I DO believe that it was the milk that made people sick than I’m taking the governments side and succumbing to their scare tactics and almost pitting myself against a peer dairy farmer.
If I DON’T believe it was the milk, I’m wearing rose colored glasses and my farm might be an outbreak waiting to happen because I believe raw milk can’t make people sick.
I think, for me, the best thing to do is assume an outbreak and react accordingly.
The problem, Gary, is that there are other pathogens. What happens to Salmonella in those same two days? What about O157:H7? Read my white paper to learn more. (I’ll give you a copy too Gary.)
I’ll try to get those papers out tonight.
Amanda
I support you guys/galls 100% in forming a body to discuss and learn from other outbreaks. If I were a small farmer, I would want information on issues such as liability and cow shares. It is absolutely painful to see these farmers raked through the coals over liability or by regulators. It takes a special person to seek out a civil disobedience opportunity and break the law to test it. Most small farmers simply want to milk cows and should not place themselves in a risky situation.
I can see a need for an organization that accepts that desire to farm and provides you with the information you need to have a successful business. As it appears now, I don’t see how that can come from WAPF if they cannot acknowledge outbreaks at all or cannot acknowledge that E coli O157:H7 may grow in refrigerated milk. The easiest path to growth here would be for WAPF to embrace change (and diversity of ideas), which is what I hope for.
To improve safety, I should also add that a key part of such an organization would be actual dairy science experts. There are ways to make raw milk safer, plain and simple. The first thing to do is realize that safer milk only helps the movement and the second thing to do is to bring in actual experts. I know of no one involved with WAPF who I would consider to be an expert on dairy hygiene. Living here in Tulare County California I come across a lot of dairy science people who could bring solid technology to this cause.
If costs are a barrier, why not set up a fund that would make low-interest loans to farmers?
Amanda
1) Increasing raw milk demand may be shortening the "residence" time during which raw milk sits in a bulk tank awaiting delivery. More demand= more deliveries=things speed up=shorter residence time between milking and consumption. This means there are more people getting milk during a time which is within the initial 2-3 day time period when the risk from campy is highest, if it is there to begin with. This may be another way of saying (I think Tim said it) that circumstances up until now may have been fortunate ("lucky"). This may be a relevant consideration as we puzzle through why there is increased incidence of campy outbreaks.
2) Given that campy is the most common food-borne illness, simply arranging one’s personal inventory so that there is overlap of at least two days before the most-recently obtained milk is used, could go a long way to normalizing the risks of ingesting campy in the highest-risk initial window of time.
3) Campy (or any other food pathogen) simply shouldn’t be in the milk to begin with. The way it gets there, assuming a cow or a herd is infected (this is the whole "closed herd" discussion), has to be through fecal contamination. This shouldn’t happen in any case.
4) Other vectors of contamination need to be considered, starting with the cleanliness of the outside of the milk container, going through the various stages of handling (crates, carts and other handling apparatus on the farm), the transport vehicle/s, the various coolers used to transport the milk containers (let’s face it, not all of us clean our coolers every time and I know on occasion, mine have the pungent aroma to prove it), the cooler bricks which are used to cool the milk in transit – and then after all that, how many of us carefully wash off the outside of the container before it hits the refrigerator? Maybe sickness comes from something in the refrigerator which sits next to the dirty milk bottle? Lots of slips are possible ‘twixt the udder and the lips, not all of which lie at the feet of the farmer, or the milk, but which could permit an ambient contamination at any stage to hitch a ride outside the milk yet still end up in the milk or cross-contaminating from milk container to another food.
I’m not attempting to apologize for and deflect all blame from the farmer, his herd, his practices and the milk. Campy shouldn’t be in the cow, the herd or the milk, nor should it be able to hitch a ride on the container. Obviously we are all learning in these outbreaks, and hopefully the epidemiology will be instructive. The age of innocence seems to be coming to an end, and with it hopefully some of the acrimony which has informed the heart-felt beliefs of both camps.
I’ve been advocating (perhaps too timidly, but it’s been there) for voluntary standards, as well as for transparent epi and increased educational efforts, for some time in the 11 Great Thoughts, which in pertinent part suggest as follows:
"9) An open, collaborative, transparent and scientifically rigorous and neutral approach should be taken by producers, consumers and public health officials in all instances of disease outbreak with a common commitment both to protect public health and to protect continued viability of responsible producers. Public health warnings which are not connected to outbreaks of illness or warnings which prove to have been unfounded, shall be followed by public health advisory followups which are communicated with the same level and extent of publicity as the initial warning, including exoneration of producers as appropriate.
"10) Independent research (including analyses of testimonials and other real-life evidence as well as traditional reductionist studies) should be publicly funded to examine the nutritional value, environmental impacts of production, and the acute and chronic impacts on human health from raw and traditional foods and from industrially-produced foods.
"11) Broader insurance availability for producers and other risk-sharing approaches should be developed as a counterweight to regulation-by-litigation.
[Farmers might consider voluntary production standards such as various kinds of testing protocols or simply rely on many years of problem-free operation, so as to induce insurers to write policies, otherwise the insurers will want to "go automatic" and insist on compliance with various regulations which is their current typical mode. Similarly, a litigation defense which is founded in compliance with the testing protocols of a voluntary standard or in decades of trouble-free operation by simply "looking at the animals and watching what’s in the filter," should help to defend against litigation, and ultimately, to reduce litigation.]"
My argument about the Weston A. Price Foundation isn’t about its real position. I know well that it presents plenty of important guidance about how to locate safe raw milk, and warnings about consuming unpasteurized conventional milk. My concern is with the inconsistency of its message. At the same time as it provides cautionary information, it also engages in repeated denials about whether consumers have become sick from raw milk. In fact, I am unaware of any outbreak over the last few years in which it has admitted in a straightforward way that raw milk was likely the culprit and that it (the foundation) was concerned. Among regulators and the media, along with many of its members, this message predominates, despite other messages to the contrary. WAPF is widely perceived as dismissing the idea that people can become ill from drinking raw milk. The reason I didn’t call you before writing this post was because I wasn’t looking for a quote, but rather was providing my own assessment of how WAPF’s mixed message is creating confusion in the marketplace and with the media, and could wind up being destructive. I didn’t use that quote you allude to from an office worker (which I believe appeared in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel) as the basis of my concern. I have discussed my concerns with a number of WAPF officials over the last few years, and I know some have similar concerns, but the matter of ongoing denials seems not to be addressed.
This isn’t a matter of recrimination. I am a big supporter of the WAPF. It performs a great service in educating people about the importance of nutrient-dense foods, and in standing up for food rights. Among supporters, there can be disagreements, and that’s what you are seeing here. In my view, such disagreements are healthy–contrast them with the public health and regulator communities, which never debate anything openly, and are stuck in a worldview often divorced from reality.
Blair,
My concern is that the regulators will use the recent illnesses as an excuse to crack down, and that part of their excuse will be that the raw dairy community won’t act because it is in denial. I don’t want to see another layer of regulation, but I think some consideration has to be given over to establishing and getting sign-on for realistic safety standards for raw dairies, similar to what exists in Colorado, incorporating part of Steve Bemis’ 11 Great Thoughts, but perhaps with more teeth.
David
David, dont forget about Bill Marlers 6 points for selling raw milk. They have teeth.
cp
One for People and One for the Pasteurizer….
As long as the FDA ignores the other raw milk…their will continue to be challenges. Challenges that will be celebrated by Big Ag and the FDA as "we told you so" failures.
Farmers need rock solid food safety plans that are used every day. Programs that go far beyond testing one time per month and address every moment of every day.
Mark
My concern is that the regulators will use the recent illnesses as an excuse to crack down, and that part of their excuse will be that the raw dairy community won’t act because it is in denial "
David,
Have faith – we’re working on it. It takes a village. With sparse financial support. But we want to determine our own standards. Our emphasis is on producer self-regulation, and consumer participation. Don’t know if we can make this work, but if we don’t consumers failed – not the producer.
This is about stretching our heads around a whole different concept – slow money – instead of convenience. We can’t continue to eat convenient foods and expect vibrant health. I think Sally said it well – "technology can be be beautiful, but it cannot be our food."
Each farm, each producer, each ecology, each animal deserves unique considerations. Like Doug Wiley said, "that’s animal husbandry".
-Blair
Fecal material has its place. Could be if the real birth mother isn’t present during this time, the immunity of the child could be permanently compromised.
I am glad to see the conversation that has evolved over this issue and wanted to add a few points.
One thing we have to remember is the challange to a lot of peoples lives/beliefs, education/careers and media campaigns the local food/raw milk movement brings to light.
As history has taught us, for those who look back anyway, we as humans usually find that we are wrong a good part of the time.
As any good scientist will tell you, this is the point of constant understanding, to rest on your assumptions, you have something to sell, or you have been bought.
Being worng works for both sides of the fence on the raw milk issue.
My hope is that both sides will come together at some point to understand the biology at play in our soils, ourselves and our future.
It is happening now, where science is being used for the good of understanding, where we humans are in the scheme of things, not a sales point.
However this use of science is turning heads and shining light of its own on the dark corners of the food world and we can learn from it, or shoot out the bulb.
I use to use the phrase learning curve, at my age I now have come to realize it is a learning path, and when my path runs out, my hope is someone will take up where I/we left off.
I have also come to know that we bearly have a clue as to the ability of soils and the bounty it can produce, the health related to it and the ability of that quailty to remove or supress the ills we face in the food web.
I do know our current system obviously does not do that and warrants review, and those who profit from the current system will not go into that long dark night easily.
So…Do we talk or do we organize to move our understanding forward.
We being the producers, the co-producers(former consumers), Academia, and concerned Government personel.
The International Raw Milk Symposium is April 10th in Madison Wi, a good place to start.
There are meetings in conjuction with the Symposium planned to talk about these very issues.
If the Farm to Consumer Foundation or Legal Defense Fund, or both is to head this up then we need your support.
If another organization or list of organizations come forward we will be there.
The more support we get the more support we have access to by the concerned fortunate who will step up as well to forward the understanding.
Sit at home and do not help, will only sour those who do, and we will be at this juncture for a very long time.
Witnessing the erosion of your rights and our ability to learn, and quite possible our ability to heal the food system and ourselves.
Tim Wightman
For those who have contracted campylobacter, or anything else that causes GI distress, I highly recommend using high-potency probiotics. They generally mitigate the condition immediately and clear it up within 48 hours. Treating diarrhea with antibiotics can have adverse reactions. The brand I and others I know use is Natren: http://store.natren.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=N It is also excellent for treating various other conditions (see the website for more info).
This type of animal, on a full-spectrum mineral supplemented grass diet, will produce, high-quality A-2 milk that, properly cared for, is a perfectly safe, exceptional food for humans.
To have your animal tested for A-2 genetics contact Dr. Richard Olree (Hillman, MI) 989.742-4242.
-Create situations, which begin to create doubts.
-Let people get sucked into a "constructive discussion" who to blame,who denies, who is wrong, who is right.
-Sit back and watch with amusement the rising confusion
– friends turn against fiends
-As the debate erupts in blaming and shaming, those who "need"to crack down will get their guns out and solve the problem, because "we farmers and consumers do not know what we are talking about".
– we think that we use intelligently ALL our energy fighting a problem,which is not the real problem and the regulators laugh their heads off in the meantime.
David I do NOT agree with your assessment of the current crisis.
There is a situation which does not need to be cultivated as a crisis.
It is played up as a crisis for very good reasons.
How long will it take until people wake up?
The agenda is control nothing else.
David….I also must take some exception to your assessment. I do not believe that there is a crisis in the raw milk community at all.
The crisis is occuring in the pasteurized milk community. They are in market freefall and dairy collapse. Their break even is above $16 CWT and they are still below $14 CWT in CA. Their tragic screams can not be heard because they are disconnected from the world of real people. Their cries are quieted by the barrier curtains created by the pasteurizer and the high profit PMO processors that are loving it.
That is the real crisis. What you are reporting as a crisis in the raw milk community are birthing pains of the a new golden age of raw milk and being used as a distraction from the conventional crisis. We are witnessing a rennaisance of agriculture.
What you are seeing and hearing are the jealous activities of those that are losing their grip on markets and losing their jobs and land and cows and everything.
As far as raw milk is concerned there will be lots of challenges on the farmers side and the consumers immune systems side as people reconnect their immune depressed and sick bodies back to biodversity. During this period farmers must embrace strict food safety systems and programs or they will be celebrated as failures. The FDA is begging for more farmers to sicken people in order the defend the germ theory and their sterile food mantra.
Farmers…seriously….take clean and green very seriously. I would be glad to help with your food safety assessment and program.
Mark
Im surprised that you havent made a U Tube video demonstrating how you milk your cows with the mobile milking machine. Is this something other farmers could emulate? Would this be less expensive than a traditional milking room? What are the safety benefits using this method?
cp
A play about raw milk, showing in Manhattan this month.
Interview with the author, who grew up on raw goat milk:
http://www.brooklynrail.org/2010/04/theater/drenched-emily-devotis-milk
-Blair
MILK
Everything has a sell-by date.
a new play by Emily DeVoti
directed by Jessica Bauman
with Carolyn Baeumler, Jordan Baker, Peter Bradbury,
Jon Krupp, Anna Kull and Noah Robbins
design Susan Zeeman Rogers, Lenore Doxsee, Amy Altadonna, Emily Pepper
Rural New England just before Reagans second term. Meg and Ben are a creditor away from losing their family farm. To the rescue flies a high-powered businessman — in a private chopper no less — offering a tidy sum for a taste of farm life and the pure, raw milk that goes with it.
Even before locavores roamed the earth, back to the land was hardly as simple as its promise; livestock and humans arent known for behaving as expected. And so it is in MILK, an elegant parable of change set on the cusp of a shifting American landscape.
April 26-May 22
at HERE
tix on sale! http://www.here.org or 212.352.3101
I am very sympathetic to those who got sick, (I once had 48 hours of food poisoning – pure misery – I can’t imagine weeks of it!!) but again and again, why didn’t all 250 families get sick? I don’t mean to accuse, I just want to understand. As Tim, Dave, Greg, Ken, Gary pointed out, there are so many factors involved. Could we also get an interview with these patients and get an honest health profile?
Greg – thanks for the education and A2 contact. Please tell me Dr. Olree has a US source, and not gong to send us to New Zealand at $80+/animal? I left a message.
Seems there’s a lucrative side business opportunity for good dairy herd managers with careful breeding. It should pay very well.
Thanks so much for everyone’s contributions. This blog rocks!
-Blair
No mice here (we just cleaned out our chicken coop for the year and no rodent nests or feces found). Our husbandry is such that the litter in our coop builds up during the year and creates internal heat through composting that destroys dangerous microbes. The chickens are thus kept very cosy and warm over our very cold winters. If I smell the slightest wiff of manure – more litter is added. Our bedding was nearly 2 feet deep today. This stuff is great spread sparingly on our pastures with lime and fresh clover/timothy seed.
We raise birds that are heritage breeds. They have wonderful immune systems unlike the big white cornish crosses(chickens) or the broad breasted whites (turkeys) that most farmers raise on pasture. Our sheep breed of choice is over 1000 years old and does not thrive on grain but only requires only good pasture and hay for optimum growth. The meat is gourmet quality.
We use either VAI for introducing new bloodlines or this fall I will be bringing in a ram from the same farm that we purchased our original breeding stock. Our poultry breeding stock is still young and I will not have to bring in new blood for a few years. I have been known to have hens that are still laying eggs nearly daily (spring and summer) and they have been 7 years old:)
We do have bats and birds but we have never had a disease problem with them – perhaps it is the health of our animals (yes, stress levels are kept to a minimum here). The bats tend to keep the mosquito population down and we welcome them here. I provide nest boxes for the wrens and even the rare bluebirds that we see so far north. They provide beautiful color and song on our farm and have never caused our chickens or turkeys to become sick.
Good husbandry is the key to keeping animals happy, healthy and free from pathogens . . . choosing the right livestock and closing your farm as much as possible is perhaps the best way to mitigate problems that might come from CAFO’s even many generations removed. I have been asked to take animals many, many times for free from owners that no longer wish to care for them any longer. The hardest thing to say to them is "I’m sorry I wish I could, but our farm is closed".
We are actually going to make a You Tube Next week that thanks our new retail partners and lets our consumers know that we have added 15 more key stores in areas that were served by Wholefoods.
Great concept…..I will be sure to give you credit for the idea of the You Tube Video showing how our Mobile Milk Barn works and how is assists us in helping the cows stay on the clean and green. It is a really great tool in our effort to rotationally intensively graze always away from manure and towards the green and clean.
I do not recommend using a mobile milk barn in many areas of the US. In some areas it is just too wet and the machine would become bogged down. In areas like Fresno it is an awesome tool. Keeping the conditions where the cows live and eat green and clean is a big part of our food safety and nutrition program at OPDC. iit is our way of being able to work with mother nature and still get raw milk safely from cows.
Thanks for asking,
Mark
I noticed on the "Raw Milk" fan page on facebook that a college-aged young woman posted a comment a few weeks ago regarding her 2 younger brothers that came down with campy and neither she, her mother, nor father were infected. The family drank raw milk. The family doctor was informed, and the usual drill occured with raw milk being blamed. During the "investigation" the family attempted to bring to the doctor’s attention the fact that the 2 boys were the only family members that had played in a nearby creek or pond (some local body of water, can’t remember) only a day or so prior to the boys coming down sick, and apparently there was some suspicion of the water being contaminated in some way. They were duly ignored, because, as we all know raw milk is ALWAYS the culprit (I’m being sarcastic). A few months later, if I recall, she said the water was tested and found to be contaminated but was tested due to an unrelated incident.
I’m not going to quibble over whether or not WAPF flat out denies raw milk can make you sick – I thought they’ve sort of made progress on that? But I do know one thing, and that is that they are SKEPTICAL of accusations of raw milk being the culprit – and the above story is a perfect example why.
Shouldn’t we all be skeptical, seeing as there is an overwhelming bias against what you support? It’s like David facing down Goliath. The establishment has its own agenda, and that is to get rid of raw milk. Period. II’m not saying that every farm should be given a free pass like some think that WAPF is doing, but we definitely have to be skeptical of the establishment, who doesn’t listen to reason or always play fair, when they make *any* accusation against raw milk illness. I don’t know about anyone else here, but I don’t trust the government, and that goes for how they handle illness outbreak. There’s too much corruption, power, and money at stake. I have a feeling most or some of the people at WAPF are in the same camp.
That raw milk will never cause an illness is not reality. That raw milk is inherently dangerous is not reality either. Now the Foundation is an easy target. They’ve left the foxhole and are running out in the open without cover…and making a frontal assault on the dietary dictocrats who have contributed to the ill-health of a majority of the population. The battle field isn’t level, and the good guys have an uphill climb.
Now I don’t agree with some of what the Foundation has done, all organizations by definition have faults….but the notion that the Foundation and it’s leaders are ignoring reality, and purposefully lying to foster more raw milk consumption is ludicrous. The Foundation doesn’t operate in a vacuum, and many of it’s positions are dictated by the landscape that the authorities create. The politics of raw milk cannot be underestimated…and as with all politics…it is just a game. The authorities have been lying for years, and taking advantage of EVERY opportunity (and even appear to be CREATING opportunities) to bash raw milk and lie to the public. Castigating the Foundation, without equally condemning the party line of the authorities, is wrong….and only aids in alienating both sides of the argument.
Yes there will be outbreaks from raw milk, just like there are outbreaks from all non-sterile foods. To expect no outbreaks just isn’t right…but to assume that every outbreak that raw milk is fingered for, by those who seek to eliminate it, is true, isn’t prudent either.
The problem with raw milk, is that the authorities (and some consumers) expect it to be produced with 100% safety. That’s a pretty high bar, and one that other foods can’t measure up to either. Raw milk is safer than many mass produced foods, but you’ll never hear the Health Department or the FDA say that…
It is a bit disturbing though to read here of a campy-free farm. Campy is ubiquitous in Nature, and the goal of eliminating campy through some invisible barrier at the property line is an attitude that followers of Pasteur would embrace. Yes closed herds are a worthy goal for many reasons, but you can’t stop birds from shitting in your pasture, or flies from a neighboring farm, biting your cows with blood from another herd down the road. Genetic isolation of a herd is different than environmental isolation. Recognizing your farms place in the larger picture, having an incredible respect for the microbe, and taking your cleanliness seriously, is a whole lot better than shutting the farm gate and expecting everything to be OK.
cp
I post the link again to the UNHEARD VOICE of the Amish farmer David Hochstetler perhaps maybe he could be just a remote possibility the real victim??? NO because TPTB pointed their finger at him therefore he is GUILTY CONVICTED and CRUCIFIED in nearly everyones mind it would seem. MOB JUSTICE a LUNCHING?
The very same sad episodes have played out on farmers across the nation over the last few years and did we ever really find out the REAL truth about any of them?
Fact is, no food supply worthwhile is 100% safe…and expecting raw milk to be is misguided.
add up the deaths from food over the last decade and you’ll see, raw milk is hardly the main problem ‘food safety’ experts should be concerned about…
I think your 2 day limit criteria is valid in light of raw milks natural qualities. However I would like to add that my family including the families that acquired milk from my farm for over 35 years collected and consumed the milk within two days. Hell when we were bringing in hay on a hot day my brother and I would ladle out leaders of ice cold milk and drink that instead of water.
The raw milk environment is not conducive to organisms other then those needed to encourage its self preservation. That being said however there are certain factors which can change raw milks natural chemistry such as trace amounts of antibiotics (which is inevitable if they are used in your management protocol) and various other inhibitors used for sanitation. In using such interventions you risk the chance of compromising raw milks natural quality which in turn renders your two day limit meaningless.
When it comes to illness it is not as simple as being exposed to a specific organism if at all and we are cutting off the nose to spite the face if we over react and focus on an organism as the perceived problem.
Amanda, despite all your immersion into detail you cant see the forests for the trees. As I see it there is a fundamental bias in your research and that is your failure to recognize the germ theory for what it is, an unproven hypothesis that breaks down when confronted with the reality of illness.
Ken Conrad
The body of research I review I learned of from WAPF and Mark McAfee. My paper takes a look at the weight of the evidence on the main bugs in raw milk. It reviews the OPDC report about its milk killing pathogens in 24 hours.
It was only after I published my white paper that, lo and behold, folks here claimed that literature isn’t really what anyone intended to cite in the first place. They are supported by Beals’ review that my term "competitive exclusion" is inappropriate (a term I first learned from WAPF).
You all can criticize my selection of literature all you want. I chose it because Sally Fallon and Mark McAfee believed it to be important and used it as the basis of their literature to promote raw milk. It appears that they did not understand the results well enough to interpret them correctly to the public. If they were wrong in selecting that body of literature to start with, take that issue up with them. I am simply a consumer trying to make sense of it all.
Amanda
One more point: I’ve done no primary research on germ theory or any other raw milk science topic. The white paper is a literature review.
Amanda
Fact is, no food supply worthwhile is 100% safe…and expecting raw milk to be is misguided. Ive never understood this logic, especially considering that raw milk is promoted as a cure all for many illnesses. What percent of the population drinks raw milk? 1-3%? What percent of the population drinks CAFO pasteurized milk or eats hamburgers, tomatoes, cantaloupe, lettuce or sprouts? The illness ratios have to be compared, not the number that became ill. The illness ratios for raw milk are much higher than other foods that have a history of pathogenic outbreaks. I didnt include spinach or peanuts because these outbreaks have only occurred once.
Why is raw milk pushed by WAPF over other traditional foods that also promote healthy bacteria? Heres links from WAPF, but they dont make these food sources a focus. Why is that?
http://www.westonaprice.org/Lacto-Fermentation.html
http://www.westonaprice.org/Old-Fashioned-Healthy-Lacto-Fermented-Soft-Drinks-The-Real-Real-Thing.html
http://www.westonaprice.org/Kvass-and-Kombucha-Gifts-From-Russia.html
I have a theory; you cant save small farms with kombucha or fermented vegetables. What would happen if small farmers promoted healthy mineralized soil, grass/organic grain fed, antibiotic free, GMO free, BST free, non-homogenized pasteurized local milk? It would be a huge hit at farmers markets. There is money to be made promoting this type of clean milk that is also pathogen free. If a person is looking for healthy bacteria, they can consume any number of traditional foods included in the links above.
I think it is sad that WAPF has convinced so many consumers and farmers that raw milk is the way they can save their farms. When an outbreak happens everyone is a victim of ignorance. A bacterium from poop is not your friend.
cp
I’m the executive director/administrator/bookkeeper/help desk for the Raw Milk Association of Colorado. I do not want to mislead people. I tell people "Sure there’s a risk…there’s a risk with any live food. Know your source." And then I tell them what I know about knowing your source. I also tell them that some people tell me that they have tried really hard to incorporate raw milk into their diets, but they just can’t tolerate it. I encourage them to sample it before they buy a share.
CP you post like you understand WAPF principles, but you demonstrate naivety when you make suggestions about GMO-free, pesticide-free, etc. Thats what USDA Organic means – lack of pesticides, but no focus on nutrition. If I understand it right, WAPF advocates raw milk because it is more nutrient-dense, it is a good source of calcium and lactic acid (so important for gut health) and it is a traditional food in the US, so it makes sense to get the best source – provided you can tolerate it. WAPF never said everyone can tolerate it..
There are so many other things that WAPF teaches; as the recent Wise Traditions journal points out – they are about how to eat well, and how to prepare foods for maximum nutrition. They don’t advocate absolutes – just guidelines. They never ever said one size fits all – which is what you and the FDA seem to be looking for. Honey, one size does not fit all!
Heck, from what I’ve been reading, one cow does not fit all….
Their overall message has been "Listen to your body. Pay attention. Educate Yourself. Know Your Source."
And last on their list: "Practice Forgiveness". That means towards others, and yourself. Including if you get sick, despite all the wisdom you have tried to follow. Forgive! For me and others that I connect with, health is a very personal journey. It’s a matter of careful observation, experimentation, joyous success, and freedom of choice.
And you have no right to take that away from me.
-Blair
I believe that your research is important in that it challenges this controlling notion based on beliefs surrounding the germ theory that competitive exclusion offers protection against illness.
Based on my perspective the germ theory and competitive exclusion are inextricably linked in that competitive exclusion is a non issue without the germ theory.
Your use of the term pathogen in your white paper is indicative of your support for the germ theory. The term pathogen however is misleading in that it assumes a specific organism is responsible for causing a specific disease or illness.
My belief is that organisms can become virulent and cause toxicity problems in a host if exposed to the right conditions. The organism is not the culprit so to speak and to focus our attention on it failing to comprehend the bigger picture is a huge mistake.
Gauses law or Competitive exclusion principal states that, two species competing for the same resources cannot stably coexist if other ecological factors are constant. The ecology of raw milk is a good example of this principal at work and for this reason makes it (if one respects the laws of nature) one of the safest raw foods to consume on the planet. For those who believe in there right to consume raw milk as well as a need for protection against specific organisms then raw milk would in fact offer such protection with no guarantee.
For me competitive exclusion as it pertains to raw milk is a non issue since I do not hold the pathogen at fault but rather the ecological inconsistencies at work and also due to fact that I believe that it is not possible to avoid these so called pathogens based on current principals without doing ourselves more harm then good. I am quite certain and thankful that I have consumed numerous pathogens over the course of my lifetime.
Accepting the inadequacies of our knowledge on this issue including an individuals freedom to chose would be a huge step towards constructive dialogue.
Ken Conrad
A quick story
I was at a small farmers market the other day where I sell my goods (no milk). I ran into a lady that months before was having obvious problems. I talked with her then about the ‘change’ that a WAP diet can have. I brought her into the store (next to the market) and showed her a copy of NT. A vegetarian for years her health was faltering. I encouraged her to attend the local chapter meeting and talk with others that have been lifted up by the WAP diet. Needless to say, here a few months later she is happy. She told me yesterday that the book has made so much of a difference in her life. She actually feels good now, and told me she hadn’t had this kind of energy in decades. Her doctor is all twisted up about her dairy and fat consumption, but she cut her triglyceride number in half…. She looked like a different person yesterday, happy, smiling, gushing with joy.
This is why the Foundation does what it does. This is why small farmers across the country are willing to ignore the authorities and produce raw, unadulterated, wholesome, straight from the cow milk.
This incidence is just one, on a long list of people that I have witnessed personally, how a WAP diet has improved quality of life via increased health. If this is happening here in my little corner of the world, extrapolation is significant. This is why I milk cows everyday. This is why I bought a farm and left my desk job. Making a REAL difference in the lives of others is tremendously fulfilling.
There is risk in everything that one does. The notion that raw milk is riskier than other foods doesn’t wash….especially when you take into consideration the long term effects of a dead food diet. The benefits are real, and tangible, and no government, health department, lawyer, or doctor has the right to decide for others if the risk is unacceptable.
How many of the cultures that Dr. Price studied drank raw milk in their diet? Does anyone know the answer to this WAPF trivia question? Was raw milk the great healer or was it raw butter?
Blair and milkfarmer, if someone cant tolerate raw milk does that mean they wont become healthy by switching to all the other nutrition principles support by WAPF? Heres something to ponderis it possible that persons health is going to improve because he/she switched from processed, chemically laden foods to any food that is in its natural state?
As for vegetarians, this term in itself is very broad. A person can consider them selves a vegetarian or vegan and eat a terrible diet. Have you ever read the labels on the processed soy foods made for vegetarians? A person can be considered a vegetarian because they avoid animal products, but still consume all processed foods and very little live foods. Im witnessing my niece doing that right now.
A true vegetarian is someone who eats a wholesome plant based diet, with the majority of their diet consumed raw. Vegetable juicing with a variety of greens provides a plethora of nutrients. Healthy oils can be obtained from flax seed and nuts that have been soaked. Sprouted grains are full of nutrition. A person consuming this type of diet would be quite healthy.
cp
As others have said, one size does not fit all. Ask Lierre Keith or any number of ex-vegetarians/ex-vegans who I know personally what even a very carefully-planned vegetarian or vegan diet did to them when followed for years.
No doubt the kind of diet you describe can be good for some people in certain circumstances for a short time, but over the long term for many (most?) people it just does not sustain health.
I dont actually support a vegan diet, but I think a vegetarian diet that includes dairy products (pasteurized yogurt, kefir, and cheese) and eggs can nutritionally sustain a person quite well. I do respect people who choose not to eat animals as a political statement to what is being done to animals in CAFOs. Overall, I think it is wise to have balance. For me personally, I choose 80% of my diet to be fruits and vegetables and 20% to be grains and protein. I am quite healthy. My weight is that of my teenage years and my cholesterol and triglyceride levels are outstanding.
Raw milk just isnt the end all of nutritional health. WAPFs raw milk movement is causing people to become ill with permanent damage to their bodies. This great food can kill you. There is a correlation to the movement growing and the number of outbreaks occurring. The people in Michigan have had a wake up call. Raw milk can harbor a pathogen and you are not necessarily protected because youve been drinking it for a long time. Fortunately, it doesnt sound like there were any serious illnesses. What if the pathogen had been E.coli 0157:H7 and not campylobacter? What if some children had developed HUS as a result? The people in Michigan better count their blessings.but the next time it could be more serious.
I dont see this as a crisis of confidence. I see it as people opening their eyes to the fact that raw milk is a high risk food. Hmmm.maybe Sally Fallon is wrong. Has anyone ever really pondered this thought? The English major turned nutritionist without credentials. Why is everyone listening to her? I saw a recent video of her. She doesnt look healthy.
cp
The mistakes continued. Even though Mark led you all to believe the outsourcing had stopped, it had not.
He continued to outsource then and I expect is still outsourcing quite a bit now. A month or so ago I offered to review his milk pool records to set the record straight. Until that happens, I know enough about the operation to suspect that a whole lot is still being outsourced. Sorry, but I cannot overlook that fact. Plain and simple, it is misbranding (to be generous).
What about the "Know your farmer" mantra? Will the leadership not help us "know our farmer" in California? Is Mark McAfee’s political activism in support of raw milk sufficient payment against this misbranding? That is, should he get off on this issue because of all of the good Blair is talking about? How would the Colorado association handle this among its farmers? Allow a farmer engaged in questionable practices to give a speech on farm safety as payment?
Let’s look at the milk pool data and prove me wrong. You all know where to find me and I can look at the data after about May 10. It’s time to get this issue straightened out.
Amanda
Amanda
I thought Mark took more heat for outsourcing than you did for exposing it.I’m grateful that you know your farmer! I support and encourage your search for truth but frankly, it was delivered with sparse tact – it’s wonderful that you are a bulldog for truth but when you don’t acknowledge the whole truth your message gets marginalized. I don’t know how I would have done any better.
Truth is, Mark has opened a lot of doors in a lot of states. I guess with any charismatic leader, you have to weigh the benefits. They live in glass houses, and I could not do what he does, but I am grateful that he does what he does.
Personally I wouldn’t cast him aside because he outsources. Focus on the good, and you fill in the gaps.
I know I shouldn’t shoot the messenger but Mark’s response was that this was legal; it was only for ‘other’ dairy products, not liquid milk, and legally, he is right.
In Colorado it is illegal to outsource raw milk. Every transaction has to be direct farm to consumer.
I know some herdshare agreements operate in CA – maybe you could find one near you? OPDC & Claravale are not the only game in town. Not as convenient as retail sales, but definitely more personal.
-Blair
You need a copy of the latest Wise Traditions journal. It addresses the anti-nutrients in plant foods. I’ll send you one if you send me your address.
-Blair