Why the CO Public Health Report May Be Opportunity in Disguise; WI DATCP’s Rush to Judgment Against Max Kane
Saturday, March 6, 2010 at 10:28PM I appreciate the concerns a number of people (okay, a lot of people) have about the report issued by the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment in connection with the campylobacter outbreak last spring.
Science and statistics are not my areas of expertise, but I don't think this whole controversy is about science and statistics. It's about politics, image, and public relations.
The matter of illnesses from raw milk is a highly sensitive one. Front and center in such cases are consumers who become ill, along with the dairy owners accused of producing contaminated milk. The consumers are sick to varying degrees, and the dairy owners experience a huge sense of responsibility and even guilt over a possible screwup in their operations.
Compounding these obvious problems is the political dust storm that always seems to accompany such cases--public health investigators prejudiced against raw milk and anyone who would be so bold as to consume it regularly, and consumers who see conspiracies in the public health approach and are thus inclined toward denial when raw milk is identified as a cause of illness. It's a highly toxic combination.
Maybe because I'm more attuned to politics than science, what stands out to me in the Kinikin Dairy situation is the opportunity inherent in the special Colorado situation. Here you have a private organization--the Raw Milk Association of Colorado--overseeing production of raw milk in the state. Colorado is unique both in having had herd share agreements sanctioned by the legislature, and having what is essentially a self-policing association for its 54-dairy membership.
I'm afraid that I have to disagree with Blair McMorran's conclusion: "RMAC does not dictate how farmers produce raw milk. They can milk out in a field with their feet, standing on their head - as long as their milk tests clean on a consistent basis. We acknowledge there is a risk, but with small pasture-based farms (Scott feeds no grain), we feel that risk is acceptable".
The tests for pathogens are not super-reliable. We’ve seen evidence of that all over the place, most notably in New York, where the state repeatedly finds listeria in the milk of licensed dairies, and private labs engaged by farmers to test split samples come up with nothing. In those cases, the state is finding pathogens, and people aren’t getting sick. The opposite happens as well—no pathogens are found and people do get sick.
I think the testing argument—at least insofar as it is used when raw milk drinkers are getting sick—can only be one part of the total picture. But when you have significant numbers of raw milk drinkers getting sick—and I don’t care if the number is 10, 53, or 81—local dairies need to take notice. Which brings me to my larger point here.
Defensiveness is not going to cut it as a model for reaction. It's one thing for producers of raw dairy products to say they want to take responsibility for overseeing their own operations, and quite another to truly do it. It may be a little late, but I think it would help the RMAC’s credibility tremendously if it carefully assessed the public health report on the alleged Kiniker outbreak, and not only pointed out shortcomings, but came up with recommendations for reducing the chances of another outbreak.
What's happened in this case is akin to a brawl at a private country club bar, where the police are called in because of injuries from the fight. If the country club wants to steer clear of, say, intrusion by the liquor licensing authorities, it will seriously investigate what went wrong—maybe bring in outside security experts--and take steps to ensure that problems don't occur again.
Such an investigation might find that the club served alcohol to minors, or served drinks to individuals who were already drunk. As part of the followup, perhaps bartenders are given special training to spot drunks, or the club begins demanding identification before serving drinks. Because if the cops keep getting called in to break up brawls at the private club, you know the public authorities are going to take action that the club might not care for.
After the investigation, the club might issue a press release providing details of its findings, and explain the steps it has taken to reduce the chances of another brawl.
Look what happened to Toyota when the company dragged its heels on investigating the acceleration problems in its cars. The matter has turned into a public relations nightmare that will take years for Toyota overcome, despite its history of producing high-quality safe cars.
My point is that, in a situation where the safety or viability of a private organization is called into question, it must demonstrate sensitivity to community concerns. How about if the RMAC engaged an outside consultant, perhaps an epidemiologist, to review the state’s report, and Scott Freeman’s operation. As he says following my previous post, he works hard to run a clean and safe dairy. Let the objective outsider do an assessment.
The main challenge with this approach is that RMAC would have to decide in advance to accept the outsider’s report—the good, the bad and the ugly. Then, it could issue a press release summarizing the report, and saying what the organization was doing to improve standards among its dairies.
What RMAC is trying to do in the context of the current national controversy over raw milk is extremely important: It is seeking to serve as a model for private associations of raw dairies around the country. To the extent it projects an image of cooperation and responsibility, it will promote the model elsewhere. To the extent it is defensive and accusatory, it will invite problems. In the end, the public health authorities will be given the benefit of the doubt, just like in the private club hypothetical example I cited, the local police would get the benefit of the doubt.
Last Saturday, I saw Scott Freeman elected to the board of the Raw Milk Association of Colorado. One of the things he said in accepting the position was this: "It's hard for me to admit this, but the way (for RMAC) to move forward is through cooperation. We have got to stick together." I agree. Come together on an approach to reassure both consumers and public health officials that RMAC has learned important lessons from the outbreak, and is working aggressively to reduce the chances of another outbreak among its members. And begin to set the standard for private regulation of raw dairy production across the country. This will be a key avenue for gaining freedom from overbearing regulators.
***
Max Kane addresses supporters prior to his Dec. 21 court hearing.It's said that the wheels of justice turn slowly. That may be so in most of the country, but not for Wisconsin's Department of Agriculture, Trade, and Consumer Protection. The ink was barely dry on a state judge's ruling Dec. 21 that Max Kane has to turn over customer lists and other information, when DATCP sent a sheriff to serve a subpoena ordering Max to provide the information at a DATCP hearing on March 18. This despite the fact that Max has already appealed the Dec. 21 decision. Now he needs to seek an exemption from the appeals court that will bar DATCP from moving ahead with its subpoena. If he doesn't get the exemption, and then repeats his refusal to testify before DATCP's inquisitors, he could potentially be jailed for being in contempt of court.
Why is DATCP in such a hurry to tangle with Max Kane, despite his highly public refusal to answer the agency's questions, on the grounds of the protection against self incrimination afforded by the U.S. Constitution's Fifth Amendment?
Maybe they're pissed because of the little video he made about his previous encounter with DATCP.
Maybe DATCP wants to make Max Kane an example for the many dairy farmers who continue to sell or distribute raw milk in defiance of the agency.
Maybe DATCP is worried about budget cuts that are already impinging on its operations, and has put the Max Kane case on a fast track, since he's such a threat to public health and safety.
I don't know exactly what Max Kane has planned for them, but my guess is that in the end, the resulting publicity is just going to wind up pissing off ever more consumers who see their food rights being abridged by the autocrats at DATCP.
Reader Comments (49)
They think the same and act the same. Do they go to a federal training facility in Quantico Virginia to become freedom haters and sterile food lovers???
Emotional Plague.....it is a prerequisite for a government promotion and paycheck. You can not be a part of Monsanto or a murderous genocide guilty drug company with out being diagnosed with Emotional Plague.
Stick with grass roots and stay away from the sickos.
Mark
I hate to say this, but David is right -- It really is more about politics than it is about public health. On both sides.
The difference, as always, is which side holds the balance of power. The regulatory agencies are backed by huge amounts of corporate money and research dollars. They don't want to make raw milk safe with better practices, and will continue to vehemently deny the benefits of farm fresh grassfed milk.
One WI DATCP bureaucrat (Donna Gilson – their media relations person) told me that corporate factory farms were probably better off producing raw milk (if it was legalized) because they “had the money to do it right.” (I have this on audio recording!!!)
If you really believe any of this drama is about food safety (Lykee, CP), then you need a reality check. Comes to America’s Dairyland, and find out for yourself how corrupt this dairy production system really is. DATCP only enforces PMO standards when it is convient for them. They are capricious and highly political. Parochical and chauvinistic, among other words used to describe them by both outsiders and insiders.
Why are farms not responsible for any kind of outbreak being shut down for the unproven transgression of one farm? Can you say CLASS WARFARE?
http://www.milkismilk.com/
So, I guess goats milk must be the same as cows milk, must be the same as sheeps milk, buffalo milk, and human milk for that matter!?!?
And Holstiens, Jerseys, Geurnserys, Ayshires, Brown Swiss...
Heck, why do we even have cattle breeders if all milk is the same?
Politics is a game that is usually played at the expense of individuals, and overlooking faslehoods or indiscrepancies, just to placate those higher in the pyramid, is a charade. Those that participate in charades rarely have much of a voice....and little leverage.
The wildebeest does not reason with the lion, the mosquito doesn't petition the bat, the worm doesn't orate to the robin.
The RMAC should respond to get changes in testing and handling protocols....not that it would matter much since tptb don't need a single positive test result to finger a raw milk dairy....but I feel strongly that it would be better served to get those changes if the data from west slope ER rooms during this time frame were interpreted for cases of the runs. This info should be public record...and not surprisingly should be compiled by the health department. a couple of FOI's and some simple statistics would reveal whether the assertions in the HD report are credible.
TWO undercover agents induced the Beachards young daughters to commit the crime of selling raw milk at an unapproved location.
http://www.news-leader.com/article/20100306/NEWS01/3060370/1007/Bid-to-dismiss-raw-milk-lawsuit-rejected-by-court
Would it not be good if they war on drugs were as successful as the war on raw dairy???
in the last post. They were ligitiment questions. You only serve to re- enforce your
negativity Since you responded with such a childish answer then I can only assume
that those 81 people were not tested and it is only assumption by the govt people. Lykke you only serve to deepen the division. You do not show any mode of working with anyone. You are showing what others say a about you to be true.
It has been said many times on this blog and others; it isn't about food safety , it's political. He who has the most money makes the rules.
Beware the flavor enhancer that is in many products that is spreading samonella. The govt has known for months and it's just now speaking out. Looking out for the people? Not at
all.
We've been there, done that with the 2006 OPDC outbreak. You accept no answer from a food safety person other than the one you are looking for. It doesn't matter what I say, unless I "change sides" and agree that the outbreaks are fabricated and food safety doesn't matter, my comments will always be described as inflammatory, stupid, and lazy.
If this was all political, why didn't the Colorado health officials, CDC, and FDA issue a big press release on their report? I don't even see it posted on their website. My assumption is that the dairyman must have fixed the problems since he's back in business and no new public health warnings were issued. Doesn't this fit Steve Bemis' 11 great thoughts?
One thing my colleagues have right - it is much easier to just ban raw milk than to try to work with the movement on " best practices." It's enough to make one cynical. And, when you tell scientists who care deeply about food safety that they are really nothing more than political pawns of agribusiness, they don't tend to react warmly toward your movement and its leaders...
http://efoodalert.blogspot.com/2010/02/posts-from-past-organic-pastures-happy.html
"One thing my colleagues have right - it is much easier to just ban raw milk than to try to work with the movement on 'best practices.' It's enough to make one cynical."
I'm really sorry to read this sentiment. Sure, it's hard to work with a diverse, perhaps unruly at times, bunch of raw milk advocates. We are living, breathing people who don't take kindly to our rights being trampled on. But the arrogance behind the belief that it's the food safety regulators' choice to withhold or grant access to raw milk is enough to make one cynical. I want to think that the vast majority of regulators care about their work and believe their efforts make a positive difference to public safety (while recognizing that rights and responsibilities are in constant tension for all involved). Statements like the one above belie this hope, however, and make the regulators look like petty power-grabbers.
To paraphrase Leonard Da Vinci, a healthy life “is a gift of nature for those who live according to its laws”.
Dr. Virginia V. Vetrano sums it up well, "(Natural) Hygienists object to the germ theory of disease because germs do not cause disease. They may be present in disease processes, and they may complicate a disease with their waste products which can be very toxic at times, but the germ or virus alone is never the sole cause of disease."
Ken Conrad
I am willing to accept the possibility that raw milk made people sick in this case and other cases which are disputed (such as the Zinniker Family Farm case here in WI) However, I was not involved in the investigation, and have not done sufficient investigation myself to determine what actually happened, and what is known and not known. Clearly, the official report doesn't tell the entire story, but that doesn't neccessarily mean its wrong either.
I have a question for you, Lykke-
Are you willing to accept the possibility that the health authorities are sometimes wrong about illness from raw milk, because of their bias and methodology?
I can accept that sometimes raw milk makes people sick. Can you accept that sometimes the health authorities are wrong?
I agree with you 100%, that defensiveness is not going to further food safety. My irritation with CP was their assumption of actual situation from only the HD’s report. We will only further food safety by looking at the whole picture, and as stated, in co-operation.
I was looking forward to speaking more with you that Saturday and am glad you were able to get the final report without having to wait on me.
----------------------
To all,
As it has been mentioned many times on this blog, food safety is not tied to sanitary conditions. As in our case, if our milk truly was responsible for the outbreak, it occurred in spite of our careful practices. And as Goatmaid tells us, her clean milk history is in spite of ‘third world’ sanitation methods. Our milk test results are no better now that we have moved into a grade A dairy barn. In fact, our last two tests have gone up (SPC). (We moved towards the end of last September.)
However getting to the whole picture is difficult. Bias has been mentioned here many times as well, and not getting defensive when faced with bias is also difficult.
If you look at the HD’s questionnaire, which is at the end of the appendix linked to in the previous post, you find these stated goals:
There are two main goals of this process:
Primary Goal: Inform shareholders of the outbreak, and instruct them to discard milk and other products
they have in their possession from the Kinikin Dairy.
Secondary Goal: Administer the questionnaire to shareholders.
Lower on the same page they offer text for the interviewer to use when first speaking with or leaving a message for the shareholder.
“Hello, this is _______________ from the _________________ Health Department. We are investigating some cases of
gastrointestinal illness among people who get milk and other food items from Kinikin Dairy. We got your name from the
dairy customer list. In order to determine the cause of illness, we are asking everyone with a cow share at the dairy to
help us by speaking with us for a few minutes, whether or not you or any family members have been ill. Your help is very
important to us to identify the cause of the illness, and prevent future illness in others. Do you have 10 minutes to speak
with me now?”
The above text suggests telling the shareholder the HD needs help in order to determine the cause of illness, but the clearly stated goals indicate the HD already has convicted us and wants to scare all of our shareholders. All questions in the set specifically refer to our dairy or how the shareholder got the milk. Not one question about anything in the rest of the world. Now maybe this was what they had to do to make the cohort study, but when all dairy is a small fraction of total food borne illness, isn’t that a bit bias. Especially when raw milk is only 70 out of 76M as Don has mentioned in past posts. Also there was a lot of similar illness all over the west slope that spring. It will be really interesting to see CDC data for 2009 in the same months. We had 11 or 12 lab confirmed cases within our shareholder group. We thought we had between 175 and 200 shares out at that time, some families with children and some singles. So lets say that each share represents 3 consumers making a total of 525. 12 then is 2.3% of the group. That’s probably still high, but it’d be interesting to have the data on the rest of the west slope population to compare to. The latest data is 2007, so I’ll have to be patient.
The above are some of the things I need to vent about and welcome everyone, especially Lykke and CP to comment on so that I may refine my side of the story before I post a final version on my website.
Thanks Everyone,
Scott
Lykke is an FDA spy and is guilty of Food Treason. She or he...(still not sure) is connected to Phyllis Entis who is also an FDA operative. Reading the blog alliances at Phyllis's website told me everything I needed to know and see to see right through this fog of war. Normal people just do not have the time in their lives to dig up sterile food alliances and consistently preach the same dead food dogma and garbage.
Lykke...embraces Autism, Asthma, IBS, Excema, Colds, Ear infections, illness and immune depression. This is Lykke. Lykke wants us all to go see our doctors and do nothing to prevent disease. She loves safe FDA drugs and their tragic killer side effects. Lykke loves that tens of thousands of people per year die from FDA drug effects. Lykke loves her check from the FDA. Lykke denies what science says about bacteria and how they are ciritcal to our health because Lykke is a tool of the FDA and all the associated Corp fascism in power.
Lykke...gives no value to food as a healing force or raw milk for its immune system building power....regardless of the testimonials or science behind our arguments. Why....because Lykke is not a thinker she is a robot with Emotional Plague and a paycheck to assure that the Emotional Plaque is never lifted. Her inflexibility is a sure sign of Emotional Plague and FDA alliance.
I have seen spies before and this one stinks to high heaven.
Lykke....I hope I have crushed some of your real human feelings. Perhaps this will make you cry a little and begin to question your FDA paycheck and humanity. Perhaps I give you to much credit....the FDA does not care one little bit about death.
Avandia....the death pill for Diabetics with a proven 43% increase in death from Myocadial Infarction....heart attack. Still on the market and no warnings.
The FDA loves money, power and death and so does Lykke.
To quote Joel Salatin....( in Farmagedon the Movie ) "what is it that makes the USDA and FDA hate freedom so much??"
I got the answer...a free people are not a sick or dependent people. A free and healthy people can think for themselves and fight back. They refuse to drink from the FDA approved punch bowl.
Lykke....my blistering attack on you will not stop.
Mark
No, Lykke, you are wrong about this.
Trying to ban raw milk will not be easy. As long as there is milk, there will be raw milk. Milk does not come out of the teat pastuerized. It comes out of the teat raw. The only way to truly stop people from obtaining raw milk is to create a totalitarian police state. Is that what you want?
Trying to ban raw milk will mean an all-out war against family farmers and consumers. It will mean a public relations disaster for your profession. Are you prepared for the consequences of that? Do you really want to have open warfare between "food safety" experts and the public? We are moving in that direction here in Wisconsin, and it is UGLY. I wonder how many farms will be put out of bussiness, how many angry consumers will be created, and how many DATCP regulators will lose their jobs if this struggle continues.
What will the consequences be for the dairy industry in this state? We are losing more dairymen, cheesemakers, and farms every year. The average age of dairy farmers and cheesemakers is getting older and older. And the possibilities for creating more world-class raw milk cheeses from Wisconsin, and energizing a new generation to become involved in the dairy industry, are being undermined by the ongoing war against raw milk here.
Here's the problem with creating best practice -- I don't think most "food safety experts" even know how to create best practices for raw milk. The concepts are totally foriegn to them -- Promoting health, not disease prevention. Cleanliness, not sterility. Embracing micro-biological-diversity, not trying to supress it. Etc...
All the money, guns, and science in the world is not a substitute for common sense. Establishing best practices for raw milk is something that needs to happen. But I do not believe that there are many food safety experts who are going to be of much help on this front. My example of our top WI dairy scientists and their ill-concieved study on the characteristics of grassfed milk illustrate perfectly why the "food safety" establishment will be an impediment to best practice for raw milk, not a boon to it.
I do not believe all 81 persons were lab-tested. The interviewers just recorded whether they got a lab test during their illness, and I don't think very many did. The rest just had symptoms "consistent" with a Campylobacter outbreak.
WRMC,
I, personally, don't agree with "best practices". There are about a million ways of doing something and creating the same wonderful result. See Goatmaid vs OP.
Lykke,
Protesting that you and some of the other strong-armers in your profession "truly think food safety is important" rings hollow. As noted by myself and others, you dissemble when you are asked a direct question. Moreover, how can you possibly explain the 10 years it took the FDA to take moldy, mis-branded, tomato products off the market - especially when they were used in baby food? Or 2+ years to get Salmonella-laced peanut butter products withdrawn - also a popular childhood food? These are very recent events, and they speak to the fact that the FDA doesn't need more regulators, it needs more inspectors. The proof is in the pudding, not in the political song and dance the FDA does to mollify large pharmaceutical and agribusiness interests while it crushes small farms. Banning any food that causes illness just makes your life a whole lot easier, doesn't it? - Unless it's Kraft, Gerber, Safeway and their ilk.
I recommend that you follow David's suggestion and talk to an epidemiologist about your questions rather than try to work through this on a blog. Perhaps go outside of your state and find someone who has specific expertise in foodborne illness outbreak investigations. You could do a google search and find some names. Look at publications - they usually have a corresponding author. The people with the most experience are at the local or state level.
I truly hope you don't really believe "food safety is not tied to sanitary conditions." Sanitation is not sterility. Hopefully all these comments by raw milk producers about having feces and dirt in raw milk are just a bunch of blog ranting.
Either way, I'm done with the verbal abuse. A couple weeks ago I actually considered going to that raw milk meeting in Wisconsin next month (on my own dime). Seeing that Mark McAfee is a key speaker, forget it. I wouldn't stand in the same room with him. No doubt there is a whole line of folks from the public health community willing to engage instead. Y'all are such a nice, friendly, open bunch of people to share ideas with. Good luck and be safe.
Ken, thanks for the link to the Newsweek article.
[Goatmaid stated this, “I watched the kids and the calves nurse their mothers and realized none of them ever got sick from sucking unwashed teats! If bacteria is so deadly, why didn't they even get sick?]
Goatmaid, the pathogens in cow and goat poop don’t make the animals sick; it only makes human’s sick. They’re zoonotic diseases…passed from animal to human. The animal does not become sick from these diseases. How long have you been providing people with raw milk? It would think having rudimentary knowledge about zoonotic diseases would be a requirement before taking on the responsibility of being a raw milk farmer.
[Brandon Peak stated this, “A *companion* approach to using safe and clean practices would be to strengthen our immunity which is becoming more and more clear as meaning having the right good bacteria in our digestive tracks. By trying to eliminate all bacteria we are getting rid of the good guys at the same time. That spells disaster.”]
I agree Brandon. Everyone needs to be knowledgeable about the immune system and its connection to good bacteria. Can you list foods that promote good bacteria in the human digestive track, other than raw milk?
[Mark McAfee stated this, “That is why OPDC has never had a pathogen found in its raw milk samples in ten years of testing. Pathogens may be present but they fail to express themselves or they are simply not there. The OPDC internal and external ecosystems in and outside of the cows and pastures are sundrenched correct and natural. These environmental conditions are the basis of the USDA NOP standards, something Steuves did not have at that time.
So...clean udders are not the answer, they are but a small part of the answer....good bacteria with cows living in the right kind of environment with natural feed is the answer. The bacteria found in healthy pasture grazed cows manure are the exact kind of bacteria that are needed in our food supply to make us healthy. Raw milk is the food to get it back to our gut!!. Our gut is our immune system!!
So...go eat a little pasture poop and thrive.....”]
Mark, as usual, you leave out facts. Pathogens have been found in OPDC products; shame on you once again for an act of omission. Oh that’s right. They weren’t really OPDC products. You were outsourcing for cream, but put the OPDC label on the bottle. Also, let’s not forget about the outsourcing you did with colostrum that happened to coincide with the 2006 outbreak. But heck, who wants to bring up that old information. So this is the truth. You appear to have a good track record for OPDC milk from the cows that are actually at OPDC, but a poor record of outsourced milk used for cream and outsourced colostrum. Here’s the way I see it, if it has the OPDC label when sold, you own the pathogen found.
Also, if you believe your customers want pasture poop in their milk, try a little experiment at the farmer’s market. Bring some manure from OPDC. When a customer makes a milk purchase, open up the bottle and sprinkle a little manure on top. It can be like chocolate sprinkles. You can explain to them all about the good bacteria. Let’s see how many loyal customers would still want their milk? You can report back to us next weekend.
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/egov/Press_Releases/Press_Release.asp?PRnum=08-061
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/egov/Press_Releases/Press_Release.asp?PRnum=07-068
http://www.marlerblog.com/Cluster%20of%20Campylobacter%20infections.pdf
http://www.rebuild-from-depression.com/blog/2008/04/the_elephant_in_the_raw_milk_r.html
[Scott Freeman stated this, “We had a two compartment dairy wash sink with hot and cold running water in the milk room. Do you really think having a separate, dedicated hand washing sink would improve our sanitation.”]
Scott, I actually have a lot of empathy for you as a raw milk dairy farmer. I believe your heart is in a good place, but maybe you have been a bit naïve as to the real seriousness of spreading pathogens in raw milk. There is no room for ignorance or nativity when it comes to raw milk production. I think you should have a sink with hot running water in the milking parlor, not just in the milk room. I also believe the milking parlor should be as clean as humanly possible. This is not possible if you have a dirt floor. I know E.coli 0157:H7 was not the pathogen in this outbreak, but it only takes as few as 10 cells to cause serious damage to the human body. When manure is in the milking parlor and then is tracked in to the milk room, all sorts of possibilities exist for pathogen contamination. Also, do you use medical gloves when you milk?
Here’s the way I see it. People want raw milk. People want raw milk via a cow share program. If a person wants to take on the responsibility of being the farmer for the shareholders, then the facility has to meet the minimum requirements for sanitation. Concrete floors have to be a part of this equation. If a mess happens, it can be hosed down. If concrete needs to be poured, the shareholders can pay for it. If sinks need to be in all the correct places, the shareholders can pay for that also. Raw milk needs to be milked and bottled in a facility that can allow raw milk to be produced as safe as humanly possible—this has to be the goal of all raw milk dairy farmers.
cp
10 cells AND the right mix of antibacterials and nutrients to insure that ecoli 0157:H7 grows while the lactic acid bacteria are suppressed.10 cells of 0157:H7 would be eliminated very quickly if they had to compete with a healthy population of lactic acid bacteria.What you need to avoid is the conditions that support the rapid growth and survival of 0157:H7 ,there is at least 10 cells of 0157:H7 in the air you breathe every time you pass a CAFO or get stuck behind a truck hauling livestock down the highway.
(I have been away from the computer as we are preparing for lambing season on our farm)
A quote from Lykke: "One thing my colleagues have right - it is much easier to just ban raw milk than to try to work with the movement on 'best practices.' It's enough to make one cynical."
You can't reason with this person - She will never change her opinion about nutrient dense foods such as raw milk . . . . No matter what we say or how we preface our arguments . . . . I also don't believe she has any interest in local foods, organic foods or even raises goats as she says (Prove it Lykke - send us links to photos of your "so called" farm).
Lykke, What about the current recall of over 10,000 food products possibly contaminated by Salmonella from a food additive that provides a "meaty" taste to processed phood:
http://www.foodsafety.gov/keep/recalls/index.html
You have not discussed this at all.
P.S. Sorry about calling on Lykke to out herself David. I will keep myself in check in the future:)
Hate to say it but the cat is out of the bag...or the nose of the camel (more like the head neck and front legs) is in the tent. Nothing will stop the flow of raw milk now...it means to much to too many. Sure the Police State might try...but as long as there are farmers willing to go to jail in order to provide the real stuff...people will still get what they need. And when it comes down to it, the government will have one heck of a time justifying the criminalization of food creation. It actually would be better if they tried....with all the chips on the table, the Truth can only prevail (at least one would hope).
Bring it on