I appreciate the concerns a number of people (okay, a lot of people) have about the report issued by the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment in connection with the campylobacter outbreak last spring.
Science and statistics are not my areas of expertise, but I don’t think this whole controversy is about science and statistics. It’s about politics, image, and public relations.
The matter of illnesses from raw milk is a highly sensitive one. Front and center in such cases are consumers who become ill, along with the dairy owners accused of producing contaminated milk. The consumers are sick to varying degrees, and the dairy owners experience a huge sense of responsibility and even guilt over a possible screwup in their operations.
Compounding these obvious problems is the political dust storm that always seems to accompany such cases–public health investigators prejudiced against raw milk and anyone who would be so bold as to consume it regularly, and consumers who see conspiracies in the public health approach and are thus inclined toward denial when raw milk is identified as a cause of illness. It’s a highly toxic combination.
Maybe because I’m more attuned to politics than science, what stands out to me in the Kinikin Dairy situation is the opportunity inherent in the special Colorado situation. Here you have a private organization–the Raw Milk Association of Colorado–overseeing production of raw milk in the state. Colorado is unique both in having had herd share agreements sanctioned by the legislature, and having what is essentially a self-policing association for its 54-dairy membership.
I’m afraid that I have to disagree with Blair McMorran’s conclusion: “RMAC does not dictate how farmers produce raw milk. They can milk out in a field with their feet, standing on their head – as long as their milk tests clean on a consistent basis. We acknowledge there is a risk, but with small pasture-based farms (Scott feeds no grain), we feel that risk is acceptable”.
The tests for pathogens are not super-reliable. We’ve seen evidence of that all over the place, most notably in New York, where the state repeatedly finds listeria in the milk of licensed dairies, and private labs engaged by farmers to test split samples come up with nothing. In those cases, the state is finding pathogens, and people aren’t getting sick. The opposite happens as well—no pathogens are found and people do get sick.
I think the testing argument—at least insofar as it is used when raw milk drinkers are getting sick—can only be one part of the total picture. But when you have significant numbers of raw milk drinkers getting sick—and I don’t care if the number is 10, 53, or 81—local dairies need to take notice. Which brings me to my larger point here.
Defensiveness is not going to cut it as a model for reaction. It’s one thing for producers of raw dairy products to say they want to take responsibility for overseeing their own operations, and quite another to truly do it. It may be a little late, but I think it would help the RMAC’s credibility tremendously if it carefully assessed the public health report on the alleged Kiniker outbreak, and not only pointed out shortcomings, but came up with recommendations for reducing the chances of another outbreak.
What’s happened in this case is akin to a brawl at a private country club bar, where the police are called in because of injuries from the fight. If the country club wants to steer clear of, say, intrusion by the liquor licensing authorities, it will seriously investigate what went wrong—maybe bring in outside security experts–and take steps to ensure that problems don’t occur again.
Such an investigation might find that the club served alcohol to minors, or served drinks to individuals who were already drunk. As part of the followup, perhaps bartenders are given special training to spot drunks, or the club begins demanding identification before serving drinks. Because if the cops keep getting called in to break up brawls at the private club, you know the public authorities are going to take action that the club might not care for.
After the investigation, the club might issue a press release providing details of its findings, and explain the steps it has taken to reduce the chances of another brawl.
Look what happened to Toyota when the company dragged its heels on investigating the acceleration problems in its cars. The matter has turned into a public relations nightmare that will take years for Toyota overcome, despite its history of producing high-quality safe cars.
My point is that, in a situation where the safety or viability of a private organization is called into question, it must demonstrate sensitivity to community concerns. How about if the RMAC engaged an outside consultant, perhaps an epidemiologist, to review the state’s report, and Scott Freeman’s operation. As he says following my previous post, he works hard to run a clean and safe dairy. Let the objective outsider do an assessment.
The main challenge with this approach is that RMAC would have to decide in advance to accept the outsider’s report—the good, the bad and the ugly. Then, it could issue a press release summarizing the report, and saying what the organization was doing to improve standards among its dairies.
What RMAC is trying to do in the context of the current national controversy over raw milk is extremely important: It is seeking to serve as a model for private associations of raw dairies around the country. To the extent it projects an image of cooperation and responsibility, it will promote the model elsewhere. To the extent it is defensive and accusatory, it will invite problems. In the end, the public health authorities will be given the benefit of the doubt, just like in the private club hypothetical example I cited, the local police would get the benefit of the doubt.
Last Saturday, I saw Scott Freeman elected to the board of the Raw Milk Association of Colorado. One of the things he said in accepting the position was this: “It’s hard for me to admit this, but the way (for RMAC) to move forward is through cooperation. We have got to stick together.” I agree. Come together on an approach to reassure both consumers and public health officials that RMAC has learned important lessons from the outbreak, and is working aggressively to reduce the chances of another outbreak among its members. And begin to set the standard for private regulation of raw dairy production across the country. This will be a key avenue for gaining freedom from overbearing regulators.
***
Max Kane addresses supporters prior to his Dec. 21 court hearing.It’s said that the wheels of justice turn slowly. That may be so in most of the country, but not for Wisconsin’s Department of Agriculture, Trade, and Consumer Protection. The ink was barely dry on a state judge’s ruling Dec. 21 that Max Kane has to turn over customer lists and other information, when DATCP sent a sheriff to serve a subpoena ordering Max to provide the information at a DATCP hearing on March 18. This despite the fact that Max has already appealed the Dec. 21 decision. Now he needs to seek an exemption from the appeals court that will bar DATCP from moving ahead with its subpoena. If he doesn’t get the exemption, and then repeats his refusal to testify before DATCP’s inquisitors, he could potentially be jailed for being in contempt of court.
Why is DATCP in such a hurry to tangle with Max Kane, despite his highly public refusal to answer the agency’s questions, on the grounds of the protection against self incrimination afforded by the U.S. Constitution’s Fifth Amendment?
Maybe they’re pissed because of the little video he made about his previous encounter with DATCP.
Maybe DATCP wants to make Max Kane an example for the many dairy farmers who continue to sell or distribute raw milk in defiance of the agency.
Maybe DATCP is worried about budget cuts that are already impinging on its operations, and has put the Max Kane case on a fast track, since he’s such a threat to public health and safety.
I don’t know exactly what Max Kane has planned for them, but my guess is that in the end, the resulting publicity is just going to wind up pissing off ever more consumers who see their food rights being abridged by the autocrats at DATCP.
They think the same and act the same. Do they go to a federal training facility in Quantico Virginia to become freedom haters and sterile food lovers???
Emotional Plague…..it is a prerequisite for a government promotion and paycheck. You can not be a part of Monsanto or a murderous genocide guilty drug company with out being diagnosed with Emotional Plague.
Stick with grass roots and stay away from the sickos.
Mark
I hate to say this, but David is right — It really is more about politics than it is about public health. On both sides.
The difference, as always, is which side holds the balance of power. The regulatory agencies are backed by huge amounts of corporate money and research dollars. They don’t want to make raw milk safe with better practices, and will continue to vehemently deny the benefits of farm fresh grassfed milk.
One WI DATCP bureaucrat (Donna Gilson their media relations person) told me that corporate factory farms were probably better off producing raw milk (if it was legalized) because they had the money to do it right. (I have this on audio recording!!!)
If you really believe any of this drama is about food safety (Lykee, CP), then you need a reality check. Comes to Americas Dairyland, and find out for yourself how corrupt this dairy production system really is. DATCP only enforces PMO standards when it is convient for them. They are capricious and highly political. Parochical and chauvinistic, among other words used to describe them by both outsiders and insiders.
Why are farms not responsible for any kind of outbreak being shut down for the unproven transgression of one farm? Can you say CLASS WARFARE?
http://www.milkismilk.com/
So, I guess goats milk must be the same as cows milk, must be the same as sheeps milk, buffalo milk, and human milk for that matter!?!?
And Holstiens, Jerseys, Geurnserys, Ayshires, Brown Swiss…
Heck, why do we even have cattle breeders if all milk is the same?
Politics is a game that is usually played at the expense of individuals, and overlooking faslehoods or indiscrepancies, just to placate those higher in the pyramid, is a charade. Those that participate in charades rarely have much of a voice….and little leverage.
The wildebeest does not reason with the lion, the mosquito doesn’t petition the bat, the worm doesn’t orate to the robin.
The RMAC should respond to get changes in testing and handling protocols….not that it would matter much since tptb don’t need a single positive test result to finger a raw milk dairy….but I feel strongly that it would be better served to get those changes if the data from west slope ER rooms during this time frame were interpreted for cases of the runs. This info should be public record…and not surprisingly should be compiled by the health department. a couple of FOI’s and some simple statistics would reveal whether the assertions in the HD report are credible.
TWO undercover agents induced the Beachards young daughters to commit the crime of selling raw milk at an unapproved location.
http://www.news-leader.com/article/20100306/NEWS01/3060370/1007/Bid-to-dismiss-raw-milk-lawsuit-rejected-by-court
Would it not be good if they war on drugs were as successful as the war on raw dairy???
in the last post. They were ligitiment questions. You only serve to re- enforce your
negativity Since you responded with such a childish answer then I can only assume
that those 81 people were not tested and it is only assumption by the govt people. Lykke you only serve to deepen the division. You do not show any mode of working with anyone. You are showing what others say a about you to be true.
It has been said many times on this blog and others; it isn’t about food safety , it’s political. He who has the most money makes the rules.
Beware the flavor enhancer that is in many products that is spreading samonella. The govt has known for months and it’s just now speaking out. Looking out for the people? Not at
all.
We’ve been there, done that with the 2006 OPDC outbreak. You accept no answer from a food safety person other than the one you are looking for. It doesn’t matter what I say, unless I "change sides" and agree that the outbreaks are fabricated and food safety doesn’t matter, my comments will always be described as inflammatory, stupid, and lazy.
If this was all political, why didn’t the Colorado health officials, CDC, and FDA issue a big press release on their report? I don’t even see it posted on their website. My assumption is that the dairyman must have fixed the problems since he’s back in business and no new public health warnings were issued. Doesn’t this fit Steve Bemis’ 11 great thoughts?
One thing my colleagues have right – it is much easier to just ban raw milk than to try to work with the movement on " best practices." It’s enough to make one cynical. And, when you tell scientists who care deeply about food safety that they are really nothing more than political pawns of agribusiness, they don’t tend to react warmly toward your movement and its leaders…
http://efoodalert.blogspot.com/2010/02/posts-from-past-organic-pastures-happy.html
"One thing my colleagues have right – it is much easier to just ban raw milk than to try to work with the movement on ‘best practices.’ It’s enough to make one cynical."
I’m really sorry to read this sentiment. Sure, it’s hard to work with a diverse, perhaps unruly at times, bunch of raw milk advocates. We are living, breathing people who don’t take kindly to our rights being trampled on. But the arrogance behind the belief that it’s the food safety regulators’ choice to withhold or grant access to raw milk is enough to make one cynical. I want to think that the vast majority of regulators care about their work and believe their efforts make a positive difference to public safety (while recognizing that rights and responsibilities are in constant tension for all involved). Statements like the one above belie this hope, however, and make the regulators look like petty power-grabbers.
To paraphrase Leonard Da Vinci, a healthy life is a gift of nature for those who live according to its laws.
Dr. Virginia V. Vetrano sums it up well, "(Natural) Hygienists object to the germ theory of disease because germs do not cause disease. They may be present in disease processes, and they may complicate a disease with their waste products which can be very toxic at times, but the germ or virus alone is never the sole cause of disease."
Ken Conrad
I am willing to accept the possibility that raw milk made people sick in this case and other cases which are disputed (such as the Zinniker Family Farm case here in WI) However, I was not involved in the investigation, and have not done sufficient investigation myself to determine what actually happened, and what is known and not known. Clearly, the official report doesn’t tell the entire story, but that doesn’t neccessarily mean its wrong either.
I have a question for you, Lykke-
Are you willing to accept the possibility that the health authorities are sometimes wrong about illness from raw milk, because of their bias and methodology?
I can accept that sometimes raw milk makes people sick. Can you accept that sometimes the health authorities are wrong?
I agree with you 100%, that defensiveness is not going to further food safety. My irritation with CP was their assumption of actual situation from only the HDs report. We will only further food safety by looking at the whole picture, and as stated, in co-operation.
I was looking forward to speaking more with you that Saturday and am glad you were able to get the final report without having to wait on me.
———————-
To all,
As it has been mentioned many times on this blog, food safety is not tied to sanitary conditions. As in our case, if our milk truly was responsible for the outbreak, it occurred in spite of our careful practices. And as Goatmaid tells us, her clean milk history is in spite of third world sanitation methods. Our milk test results are no better now that we have moved into a grade A dairy barn. In fact, our last two tests have gone up (SPC). (We moved towards the end of last September.)
However getting to the whole picture is difficult. Bias has been mentioned here many times as well, and not getting defensive when faced with bias is also difficult.
If you look at the HDs questionnaire, which is at the end of the appendix linked to in the previous post, you find these stated goals:
There are two main goals of this process:
Lykke is an FDA spy and is guilty of Food Treason. She or he…(still not sure) is connected to Phyllis Entis who is also an FDA operative. Reading the blog alliances at Phyllis’s website told me everything I needed to know and see to see right through this fog of war. Normal people just do not have the time in their lives to dig up sterile food alliances and consistently preach the same dead food dogma and garbage.
Lykke…embraces Autism, Asthma, IBS, Excema, Colds, Ear infections, illness and immune depression. This is Lykke. Lykke wants us all to go see our doctors and do nothing to prevent disease. She loves safe FDA drugs and their tragic killer side effects. Lykke loves that tens of thousands of people per year die from FDA drug effects. Lykke loves her check from the FDA. Lykke denies what science says about bacteria and how they are ciritcal to our health because Lykke is a tool of the FDA and all the associated Corp fascism in power.
Lykke…gives no value to food as a healing force or raw milk for its immune system building power….regardless of the testimonials or science behind our arguments. Why….because Lykke is not a thinker she is a robot with Emotional Plague and a paycheck to assure that the Emotional Plaque is never lifted. Her inflexibility is a sure sign of Emotional Plague and FDA alliance.
I have seen spies before and this one stinks to high heaven.
Lykke….I hope I have crushed some of your real human feelings. Perhaps this will make you cry a little and begin to question your FDA paycheck and humanity. Perhaps I give you to much credit….the FDA does not care one little bit about death.
Avandia….the death pill for Diabetics with a proven 43% increase in death from Myocadial Infarction….heart attack. Still on the market and no warnings.
The FDA loves money, power and death and so does Lykke.
To quote Joel Salatin….( in Farmagedon the Movie ) "what is it that makes the USDA and FDA hate freedom so much??"
I got the answer…a free people are not a sick or dependent people. A free and healthy people can think for themselves and fight back. They refuse to drink from the FDA approved punch bowl.
Lykke….my blistering attack on you will not stop.
Mark
No, Lykke, you are wrong about this.
Trying to ban raw milk will not be easy. As long as there is milk, there will be raw milk. Milk does not come out of the teat pastuerized. It comes out of the teat raw. The only way to truly stop people from obtaining raw milk is to create a totalitarian police state. Is that what you want?
Trying to ban raw milk will mean an all-out war against family farmers and consumers. It will mean a public relations disaster for your profession. Are you prepared for the consequences of that? Do you really want to have open warfare between "food safety" experts and the public? We are moving in that direction here in Wisconsin, and it is UGLY. I wonder how many farms will be put out of bussiness, how many angry consumers will be created, and how many DATCP regulators will lose their jobs if this struggle continues.
What will the consequences be for the dairy industry in this state? We are losing more dairymen, cheesemakers, and farms every year. The average age of dairy farmers and cheesemakers is getting older and older. And the possibilities for creating more world-class raw milk cheeses from Wisconsin, and energizing a new generation to become involved in the dairy industry, are being undermined by the ongoing war against raw milk here.
Here’s the problem with creating best practice — I don’t think most "food safety experts" even know how to create best practices for raw milk. The concepts are totally foriegn to them — Promoting health, not disease prevention. Cleanliness, not sterility. Embracing micro-biological-diversity, not trying to supress it. Etc…
All the money, guns, and science in the world is not a substitute for common sense. Establishing best practices for raw milk is something that needs to happen. But I do not believe that there are many food safety experts who are going to be of much help on this front. My example of our top WI dairy scientists and their ill-concieved study on the characteristics of grassfed milk illustrate perfectly why the "food safety" establishment will be an impediment to best practice for raw milk, not a boon to it.
I do not believe all 81 persons were lab-tested. The interviewers just recorded whether they got a lab test during their illness, and I don’t think very many did. The rest just had symptoms "consistent" with a Campylobacter outbreak.
WRMC,
I, personally, don’t agree with "best practices". There are about a million ways of doing something and creating the same wonderful result. See Goatmaid vs OP.
Lykke,
Protesting that you and some of the other strong-armers in your profession "truly think food safety is important" rings hollow. As noted by myself and others, you dissemble when you are asked a direct question. Moreover, how can you possibly explain the 10 years it took the FDA to take moldy, mis-branded, tomato products off the market – especially when they were used in baby food? Or 2+ years to get Salmonella-laced peanut butter products withdrawn – also a popular childhood food? These are very recent events, and they speak to the fact that the FDA doesn’t need more regulators, it needs more inspectors. The proof is in the pudding, not in the political song and dance the FDA does to mollify large pharmaceutical and agribusiness interests while it crushes small farms. Banning any food that causes illness just makes your life a whole lot easier, doesn’t it? – Unless it’s Kraft, Gerber, Safeway and their ilk.
I recommend that you follow David’s suggestion and talk to an epidemiologist about your questions rather than try to work through this on a blog. Perhaps go outside of your state and find someone who has specific expertise in foodborne illness outbreak investigations. You could do a google search and find some names. Look at publications – they usually have a corresponding author. The people with the most experience are at the local or state level.
I truly hope you don’t really believe "food safety is not tied to sanitary conditions." Sanitation is not sterility. Hopefully all these comments by raw milk producers about having feces and dirt in raw milk are just a bunch of blog ranting.
Either way, I’m done with the verbal abuse. A couple weeks ago I actually considered going to that raw milk meeting in Wisconsin next month (on my own dime). Seeing that Mark McAfee is a key speaker, forget it. I wouldn’t stand in the same room with him. No doubt there is a whole line of folks from the public health community willing to engage instead. Y’all are such a nice, friendly, open bunch of people to share ideas with. Good luck and be safe.
Ken, thanks for the link to the Newsweek article.
[Goatmaid stated this, I watched the kids and the calves nurse their mothers and realized none of them ever got sick from sucking unwashed teats! If bacteria is so deadly, why didn’t they even get sick?]
Goatmaid, the pathogens in cow and goat poop dont make the animals sick; it only makes humans sick. Theyre zoonotic diseasespassed from animal to human. The animal does not become sick from these diseases. How long have you been providing people with raw milk? It would think having rudimentary knowledge about zoonotic diseases would be a requirement before taking on the responsibility of being a raw milk farmer.
[Brandon Peak stated this, A *companion* approach to using safe and clean practices would be to strengthen our immunity which is becoming more and more clear as meaning having the right good bacteria in our digestive tracks. By trying to eliminate all bacteria we are getting rid of the good guys at the same time. That spells disaster.]
I agree Brandon. Everyone needs to be knowledgeable about the immune system and its connection to good bacteria. Can you list foods that promote good bacteria in the human digestive track, other than raw milk?
[Mark McAfee stated this, That is why OPDC has never had a pathogen found in its raw milk samples in ten years of testing. Pathogens may be present but they fail to express themselves or they are simply not there. The OPDC internal and external ecosystems in and outside of the cows and pastures are sundrenched correct and natural. These environmental conditions are the basis of the USDA NOP standards, something Steuves did not have at that time.
So…clean udders are not the answer, they are but a small part of the answer….good bacteria with cows living in the right kind of environment with natural feed is the answer. The bacteria found in healthy pasture grazed cows manure are the exact kind of bacteria that are needed in our food supply to make us healthy. Raw milk is the food to get it back to our gut!!. Our gut is our immune system!!
So…go eat a little pasture poop and thrive…..]
Mark, as usual, you leave out facts. Pathogens have been found in OPDC products; shame on you once again for an act of omission. Oh thats right. They werent really OPDC products. You were outsourcing for cream, but put the OPDC label on the bottle. Also, lets not forget about the outsourcing you did with colostrum that happened to coincide with the 2006 outbreak. But heck, who wants to bring up that old information. So this is the truth. You appear to have a good track record for OPDC milk from the cows that are actually at OPDC, but a poor record of outsourced milk used for cream and outsourced colostrum. Heres the way I see it, if it has the OPDC label when sold, you own the pathogen found.
Also, if you believe your customers want pasture poop in their milk, try a little experiment at the farmers market. Bring some manure from OPDC. When a customer makes a milk purchase, open up the bottle and sprinkle a little manure on top. It can be like chocolate sprinkles. You can explain to them all about the good bacteria. Lets see how many loyal customers would still want their milk? You can report back to us next weekend.
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/egov/Press_Releases/Press_Release.asp?PRnum=08-061
http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/egov/Press_Releases/Press_Release.asp?PRnum=07-068
http://www.marlerblog.com/Cluster%20of%20Campylobacter%20infections.pdf
http://www.rebuild-from-depression.com/blog/2008/04/the_elephant_in_the_raw_milk_r.html
[Scott Freeman stated this, We had a two compartment dairy wash sink with hot and cold running water in the milk room. Do you really think having a separate, dedicated hand washing sink would improve our sanitation.]
Scott, I actually have a lot of empathy for you as a raw milk dairy farmer. I believe your heart is in a good place, but maybe you have been a bit nave as to the real seriousness of spreading pathogens in raw milk. There is no room for ignorance or nativity when it comes to raw milk production. I think you should have a sink with hot running water in the milking parlor, not just in the milk room. I also believe the milking parlor should be as clean as humanly possible. This is not possible if you have a dirt floor. I know E.coli 0157:H7 was not the pathogen in this outbreak, but it only takes as few as 10 cells to cause serious damage to the human body. When manure is in the milking parlor and then is tracked in to the milk room, all sorts of possibilities exist for pathogen contamination. Also, do you use medical gloves when you milk?
Heres the way I see it. People want raw milk. People want raw milk via a cow share program. If a person wants to take on the responsibility of being the farmer for the shareholders, then the facility has to meet the minimum requirements for sanitation. Concrete floors have to be a part of this equation. If a mess happens, it can be hosed down. If concrete needs to be poured, the shareholders can pay for it. If sinks need to be in all the correct places, the shareholders can pay for that also. Raw milk needs to be milked and bottled in a facility that can allow raw milk to be produced as safe as humanly possiblethis has to be the goal of all raw milk dairy farmers.
cp
10 cells AND the right mix of antibacterials and nutrients to insure that ecoli 0157:H7 grows while the lactic acid bacteria are suppressed.10 cells of 0157:H7 would be eliminated very quickly if they had to compete with a healthy population of lactic acid bacteria.What you need to avoid is the conditions that support the rapid growth and survival of 0157:H7 ,there is at least 10 cells of 0157:H7 in the air you breathe every time you pass a CAFO or get stuck behind a truck hauling livestock down the highway.
(I have been away from the computer as we are preparing for lambing season on our farm)
A quote from Lykke: "One thing my colleagues have right – it is much easier to just ban raw milk than to try to work with the movement on ‘best practices.’ It’s enough to make one cynical."
You can’t reason with this person – She will never change her opinion about nutrient dense foods such as raw milk . . . . No matter what we say or how we preface our arguments . . . . I also don’t believe she has any interest in local foods, organic foods or even raises goats as she says (Prove it Lykke – send us links to photos of your "so called" farm).
Lykke, What about the current recall of over 10,000 food products possibly contaminated by Salmonella from a food additive that provides a "meaty" taste to processed phood:
http://www.foodsafety.gov/keep/recalls/index.html
You have not discussed this at all.
P.S. Sorry about calling on Lykke to out herself David. I will keep myself in check in the future:)
Hate to say it but the cat is out of the bag…or the nose of the camel (more like the head neck and front legs) is in the tent. Nothing will stop the flow of raw milk now…it means to much to too many. Sure the Police State might try…but as long as there are farmers willing to go to jail in order to provide the real stuff…people will still get what they need. And when it comes down to it, the government will have one heck of a time justifying the criminalization of food creation. It actually would be better if they tried….with all the chips on the table, the Truth can only prevail (at least one would hope).
Bring it on
From my hilltop I can look out over the valley down into town, and see there… what exactly? Micro businesses, churches, parks, schools, neighborhoods and neighbors. All people, all living, whether they realize it or not, as if human relationship is the most important thing they have in the world. But in this ever-tightening administrative state, their personal relationships are gradually being replaced by third-party system relationships. Even here in our little country town there is an increasingly rapid infiltration by non-local legal, regulatory, and business forces. Third-party systems are expanding their influence, becoming denser, more powerful, more intrusive. And they are not going away. Relationship is whats going away.
I feel no need or desire to cooperate with third party systems that attempt to stand between me and my neighbors. I want rather to have actual human relationships. I want to call my neighbors by their first names–every shopkeeper and car dealer and doctor and teacher and farmer. I want to know their circumstances, their wants and needs, and as best I can I want to understand their motivations. That is where and how I find contentment, where I find needs that require my help, and where I find help when Im in need.
This is of course not to say that there is no place for systems. When something cannot be accomplished at the individual level (say, building a car, or a road, or a power grid) and when business becomes so large that it is virtually faceless, then we ought to have systematic intermediaries. But we act now as if systems are the answer to our all health and safety and happiness at every level, including the personal. We behave as if systems are better than freedom and responsibility, better than plain, one-on-one human trust. We are blurring the lines between public and private activities.
I read recently that government payrolls are growing at a rate of 10% a year–this while our local businesses are failing. This is because we are giving our lives over to centralized control. In the process we are losing all the wonders of biological and psychological health that come from decentralization–from human relationship.
I agree with miguels ideas of health and wellness. Why must I be prohibited from buying milk from him? Why must I be a cow owner to enjoy the very basic freedom to eat the food that I choose?
Most raw milk farmers take their responsibilities very seriously. Regular lab testing is, of course, a big part of this to identify problems before they get out of hand. Coliform count is one of the tests that is usually done, and the farms I know consistantly score well under 10 cfu/100mL. One farm is consistantly LESS THAN 1 (in other words, the lab can’t find any, but can’t stastically say 0 coliforms). If there were any 0157:H7 contamination, it would be evident immediately in these tests, since it is a coliform bacteria.
kirsten weiblen-
"Best Practices" can encompass a wide range of approaches and sizes of operations. The critical thing is that each producer understands their own process, its weaknesses and stregnths, and take steps to ensure and verify the safety of their process in practice. It doesn’t need to be a "one-size-fits-all" approach. We just need to be willing to accept constructive criticism and look at ways to improve.
That is why I believe there ought to be a private non-profit raw milk certification agency, with pro-raw-milk experts who help raw milk farmers improve their animal husbandry, milking practice, and scientifically verify the safety of the milk being produced. Unfortunately, the supposed illegality of raw milk sales here in WI makes forming such a certification agency very difficult. We would basically be forming an association to do something that the state says is illegal.
Even once it is legalized here, I would not trust the state to do this job, because frankly they aren’t consistant in upholding standards for pastuerized milk. DATCP is more concerned with petty internal department politics and appeasing our $21 billion dairy industry than they are with protecting consumers. It is a pathetique situation. No wonder America’s Dairyland is lagging behind states like Vermont and California when it comes to raw milk artisan cheese — in those states selling raw milk on the farm is legal!
Lykke, CP-
I have said that I am willing to accept the possibility that raw milk was the culprit for making people sick in these controversial cases. Are you willing to accept the possibility that the health authorities could be wrong about some of these cases as well?
Or do you only see the world in black and white?
It is very much like the health authorities in these raw milk cases. Even if they are right that raw milk was responsible in a given situation, they undermine their own case by their biased methods and failure to consider other possible causes. When you come into an investigation with the intention of proving that raw milk was responsible for illness, you are more than likely going to find the evidence you need to rationalize this belief, whether it is correct or not.
Lykke, CP — Are you willing to accept the possibility that the health authorities are wrong about some of these cases? Or the possibility that there is not conclusive evidence to implicate raw milk? I am willing to accept the possibility that raw milk was responsible, but not without conclusive evidence and a thorough and unbiased investigation.
How about picking up the phone tomorrow during business hours and calling some food safety people with your questions? You could report back on this blog regarding the answers.
Ive been following raw milk outbreaks for about 2 years and Ive read information on previous outbreaks. For me and my analysis, it comes down to the math. In the Kinikin dairy case they found 12 people with a matching blueprint of Campylobacter. That means these 12 people were all exposed to the same contamination source. If it was something other than the raw milk, it means all 12 would have eaten another exact same food contaminated with Campylobacter as well as all drank raw milk from the same raw milk cow share program. It comes down to odds. Considering that a very small percentage of people drink raw milk (1%) compared to pasteurized milk, what are the odds that this group of 12 people (who lived in varying counties) consumed raw milk from the same cow share program and also consumed the exact same contaminated chicken? Water? Other source? I believe the odds are zero.
So the answer to your question is no. I dont think the health authorities are wrong and I dont think they have some big bias against raw milk. The bias belief system has been propagated by Sally Fallon. She has to come up with some reason why raw milk outbreaks are happening. Have you ever read WAPFs pathetic explanations of the Dee Creek 2005 outbreak or the Alta Dena Salmonella outbreak in the 1980s? It is a joke. http://www.realmilk.com/washington-lessons-learned.html
http://www.realmilk.com/untoldstory_2.html
Let me state this again, I support peoples right to buy and sell raw milk, but it has to be done with safety regulations.
Id like to say something about Lykke and the personal attacks that have been made about him/her. This person has been more than amenable with the group that blogs here. I think some people are displacing their personal feelings about the control of government on to him/her. All the insults need to stop. If you cant have a reasonable discussion with a person who works in the real world of food safety, as a group/movement you will never get anywhere. I think it would behoove all of you if you followed Michael Schmidts example of respectful behavior. Many government people read this blog. After reading the hateful comments on this blog, why would anyone who is anti raw milk even want to consider the possibility of making raw milk legal? Most of you seem like unreasonable kooks, with Bob Hayles and Mark McAfee being the biggest kooks of all.
Rather than sounding like kooks, why not show them that you can be reasonable, interested in raw milk safety and when an outbreak happens look to find the cause and learn something from it instead of denying it..just something to think about.
cp
If they can’t outlaw raw milk, they’ll settle for regulated raw milk, because in the end the result is the same!
David, you liquor license example is telling. We are free men, we do not need permission to produce food nor for providing the same to other eaters.
We have lots of food safety problems in the whole entire food system, despite there being regulations in place. Regulation will never be the solution to food safety, it is only a system for enslavement.
I don’t understand how the links are a joke. Because they suggest a pattern of deception and bias on the part of health authorities, and this makes you uncomfortable?
Further, this statement is unsubstantiated — "In the Kinikin dairy case they found 12 people with a matching blueprint of Campylobacter. That means these 12 people were all exposed to the same contamination source."
1) I am curious to learn more about this "blueprint" method, and what its statistical relevance is?
2) Did the health authorities conduct blueprints on other campylobacter cases in the region which could not be linked to raw milk?
Further, you have not answered my question. Can you accept the possibility that the health authorities can be wrong? I can accept the possibility that people got sick from raw milk. But I somehow have a hard time NOT being skeptical of an investigation which begins with the assumption that raw milk was responsible for illness, and then looks only for evidence which verifies this assumption.
Remember, scientists said for years that white people had larger brains than "inferior races", and conducted extensive and thorough experiments to prove their assertion. Did this make them right?
Can you accept the possibility that the health authorities can sometimes be wrong about raw milk outbreaks?
Last week I linked 2 articles that reported that it is claimed that 70 people get sick yearly from raw milk 76000000 [thats 76 million] get sick from the food system resulting in 350000 hospitalizations and 5000 resulting DEATHS. I wonder what some folks do not understand about these official numbers? Where is the outrage [and shame] among the food safety folks?
Mark is outraged about this Bob H is also and 98% of the rest of us posting here.
Don’t stop shouting Mark there are many now that are responding the truth.
BH
Blistering attacks do not work on the brain dead….I should not bother.
What I do know that really works is exposure of the truth. I was honored last week to present my case about being "exempted" from the CA Milk Pool at a CDFA Producers Review Board meeting in Sacramento
The chairman and other members of the PRB listened to my case for over an hour and then in the summary the chairman said…( I paraphrase his rough quotes from a certified transcript that has been ordered ). "I know that the "state" ( CDFA ) has been biased against raw milk for many many years….but I respect what you are doing in your niche and CA needs you".
Thats right…CDFA acknowledged bias and the terrible treatment and ongoing mistreatment and bias against OPDC and historically Alta Dena as raw milk producers.
I am very happy to have come to a place where good people at CDFA can speak the truth and acknowledge the true history of CA raw milk. We have found some common ground and now we can work together as we go forward. I am sure there will be set backs but this is a major break through. When the public hearing transcripts come in I will send them to David for digestion and contemplation.
These acknowledgements did not come after being passive….they came after fighting like mad, standing proud and strong and demanding that hearings be held and the truth be spoken on the record. This is food freedom fighting and we all must keep this heat on all over America. Public hearings with court reporters reporting the exact words and testimony….moms telling their testimonies of healing and health from drinking raw milk….yet having illness and allergies from pasteurized milk…this is the path to progress. We must create a public record that can be quoted. We also need more video footage. Keep the cameras rolling. Documentaries can then take this message to the masses.
Ignore Lykke….it is just poor quality back ground noise.
The people matter and they are thriving. My calculations show that yesterday….another 4 people died from the very safe FDA approved Avandia medication that has been proven to induce heart attacks. ( it turns off gene switches at the cell level…I guess the heart does not like being turned off…). This will happen again tomorrow and every day. Avandia still on the market and no FDA warnings.
In Lykke’s flat sterile world….death by doctor and death by safe FDA drugs is all ok.
All the best,
Mark McAfee
You are welcome Mark. Your last statement [death by doctor] triggered a thought . When they take away our birth certifcate and issue our death certificate I wonder how many times the REAL cause of death is stated. Is cancer or heart failure ect. really true or could most deaths be just a direct result of the REAL CAUSE the APPROVED SAD? I also have to wonder if in our modern enlightened age shoudn’t nearly all deaths just be simply from a ripe old age of 90 or 100 years. Maybe our EXAULTED science has failed us? It would seem like something is fundamentlly askew.
Don’t watch this 3 minute if you are having imported fish tonight! Hint TOXIC plus sewage. 80% of US fish is imported 1% is inspected.
Maybe we just need to call the food safety folks tomorrow durning office hours and let them know about this problem?
Is the food safety "system" broken or not?
Regulations do not fall out of the sky disproportionately upon the heads of small producers. They are created by the agribusiness interests, drafted by their lobbyists, and passed as law by "our" representatives, specifically to increase their market share by discouraging all others.
Public Health officials are not independent government protectors of our health, but collude with the most toxic and unhealthy food producers in history to protect their profits. I would argue that the FDA itself is a threat to public health, populated with revolving-door bureaucrats taking their last few spins on the private/public sector merry-go-round.
Perhaps you imagine milk producers continuing to pool their products for sale to the millions of masses now served by the billion-carton. But the small producers simply want to stay in business, which they can more likely do now by selling locally, in which case contamination is much easier to track than the vast networks of FoodInc.
So of course it’s reasonable to expect them to want to limit the sales of raw milk: just not for the cause of your health or mine.
Pretty soon it will no longer be a tiny minority served by the small producer, but everyone who wants to eat. The tide is rising for the Middle Man, along with the whole poisonous circus of suits who enrich themselves by impoverishing the soil.
The regulation I want to see honored is the 14th Amendment of the Constitution, the Right To Contract. I want to grow whatever I want, and give, trade or sell it to whoever trusts me enough to engage a deal. What a concept.
BH
http://www.JuicyMaters.com
It has a list of manufacturer acknowledged side effects longer than most drugs, has documented withdrawal issues, and has limited effectiveness…
All this for a drug the manufacturer admits in its own advertising, it doesn’t even know what it does and how it works…seratonin re-uptake…MAYBE.
Google most drugs (just the drug name, not name and side effects or name and contraindications, etc) and the mfrs website usually shows up in the first few results…at least on the first page of results. With this drug you have to go to the FOURTH page of results to find anything positive about it…the first three pages of results are all about the problems.
Yet the FDA approves this Wythe drug…and folks think the FDA gives a rats ass about us? ROFLMAO.
BH
http://www.JuicyMaters.com
I am disappointed that you may not attend the Second International Raw Milk Symposium. I regret that my speech may be the reason that you may not attend. You are protected by your false name and unknown identity and no one will know who you are….
I agree that Michael Schmidt is the Dali Lama of raw milk freedom fighters and that I tend to be a bit more Brave Heart-ish in my screams for "FREEDOM". I am taking Dali Lama lessons but I am only getting a B minus so far. I hope to get A’s very soon but still carry my Scottish broad sword. Not sure how I can do both…it will be quite a trick.
Remember that Michael regards this as a war…and nothing short of it. I agree wholeheartedly. Deception, power, education of the opposition, uprising of the grass roots and strategy are all part of this drama.
The lies and the cheating on the part of the FDA and Big Dairy are very real. I have seen them and they are very dangerous and fatal to many Americans.
That is why I am getting a B minus. I do not stand idlly by and watch Americans at funerals very well. I take seriously the deaths caused by FDA drugs and refuse to be passive. I will speak and I will denounce this tragedy at every opportunity that I have been given. Because I know the power of the healing that Raw Milk ( and other whole food ) provides and I also know the death provided by the FDA through greedly protectionist fascism. I responded on 15,000 EMS calls during my days as a paramedic and I do not forget counting the piles of FDA approved meds sitting beside each and every bed of the person that called *911 for help, because the drugs did not make them better…they were killing them.
I get it…..Americans are getting it more and more every day. I hope that perhaps you can get it as well. Come to Wisconsin and be a part of progress.
Mark
re your dilemma between braveheart and the dali lama, read "general and deacon jackson at odds," chpt. 21, vol. 1 of freeman’s "lee’s lieutenants."
cp,
re your suggestion that all raw milk sales between the producer and the consumer "has to be done with safety regulations" obviously begs the question: whose safety regulations?
regulations imposed by a third party (i.e., the govt.) results in the parties to the transaction becoming wards of the state, while regulations imposed by the parties to the transaction results in freedom and liberty.
for my part, i choose freedom and liberty.
If the founding fathers had their understanding of freedom and liberty we’d still be under British rule.
BH
http://www.JuicyMaters.com
I just want to say that I appreciate each and everyone who contributes to this forum, because I have learned from you, yes, even from those of you who are less than enthusiastic about people having the right to choose their own daily nutrition fare. It is no secret that I would love to be the next door neighbor to many on this blog like Don W. or Dave G. or Dave M., Dave K., or Mark M., or Silvia G., Goat Maid, and, yes, even, Bob H! All of you have your own style of writing and I appreciate that because it certainly isnt boring to read. So, if one of you steps out of your usual style and vents a bit its OK by me because I like to read between the lines and look for the message behind the anger, frustration or sadness. Maybe because we walk this whole foods narrow path together, we have a certain collective intuitive knowledge that eating clean, farm fresh, nutrient dense foods keeps us healthy and ready for battle. As a disabled person I can appreciate what being healthy is because despite my cerebral palsy, I dont take Rxs due to this diet of whole-foods. Since becoming a medical ward of the state, I rarely visit a clinic that Im allowed to because one doesnt see board certified physicians anyway, and I actually count myself lucky, because Ive come to the conclusion that the least contact one has with doctor assistants and doctors, the healthier one has a chance of being IF they have those who care enough to buy directly from farmers! (In fact, I have noticed that I am healthier than those who are taking my vitals at these clinics!)The majority of my food comes directly from farmers, by-passing the grocery store, especially meat, milk, eggs, and fresh vegetables. (We have our own garden, too). OPDC, of course, is our main source for farm fresh milk, but there are others, as well. If farmers are feeding my family I believe that they can feed this nationto that I have no doubts.
So, never be contrite for shouting here because here on Davids blog we should feel the most comfortable to vent when we need or just want to strongly express a point or two. I cant help feeling that the FDA/USDA + all regulatory agencies operate via [Monkey Salvation for a Fish,] a story from a book on meditation stories that reads like this:
[ What on earth are you doing? said I to the monkey when I saw him lift a fish from the water and place it on a tree. I am saving it from drowning was the reply. The sun that gives sight to the eagle blinds the owl.] If, and/or, when the day comes that my family and I are no longer permitted to buy our food from the sources we choose, that is, directly from farmers, then we will BE that fish the monkey (USDA) is trying to save. Sadly, I think the majority of US citizens are flopped over that tree branch now. Humbly, Alyssa
Hate to break it to you, but in many ways we are still ruled by the British.
Let’s start with our culture: Anglo-Saxon, largely Protestant, and most definetly Puritanical. Our legal and political system is largely inheritted from English political and legal traditions.
Even in the world of dairy, guess what the most commonly produced cheese is in America? Yup, that’s a British style of cheese too: Cheddar.
And we are all speaking in English here, are we not?
As for the founding fathers, lets not forget that many of them were slaveholding aristocrats. And the constitution excluded women, blacks, indentured servants, and natives from voting.
Blacks are no longer slaves, women can vote, and American Indians are full citizens…all while adhering to, not ignoring, the constitution.
If folks like lykke and Marler want to have the government RIGHTLY control what we choose for our nutrition, fine…but do it by changing the constitution, changing the basic law of this country, not by ignoring it.
BH
http://www.JuicyMaters.com
Instead of the plantation, today we have the ghetto and the prison-industrial complex.
American Indians are one of the most socially and economically depressed groups in the U.S. Our Federal gov’t has broken every single treaty it has ever signed with a Native American nation. And the response of the FBI when they organized the American Indian Movement to demand political rights? Repression, violence, and arrests.
Its easy for us raw milkers to feel oppressed by these fascists in the gov’t, but let’s keep things in perspective here. It could be alot worse.
When the government controls your health, and it does through the FDA and prohibiting a lot of effective natural, old-fashioned remedies, among other things…and when the government controls what you eat, like raw milk for instance…when "they" control health and food, "they" own you. You are a slave.
Are things horrible on a daily basis right now? Of course not…but that is the government’s choice, to be a beneficent slave owner AT THIS TIME…but you are still a slave, just one that is sorta well cared for…but a slave just the same.
For me, I rather be uncomfortable and free than a happy slave. The house slaves were relatively happy too 150 years ago.
BH
http://www.JuicyMaters.com
"In my various travels, I have seen a number of small homesteads situated on land that no one wanted and yet abundantly productive of food, pleasure, and other goods If they cared, I think agricultural economists could find small farmers who have prospered, not by getting big, but by practicing the ancient rules of thrift and subsistence, by accepting the limits of their small farms, and by knowing well the value of having a little land.
How do we come at the value of a little land? We do so by reference to the value of (having) no land. Agrarians value land because somewhere back in the history of their consciousness is the memory of being landless. This memory is implicit, in Virgils poem {not included here}, in the old farmers happy acceptance of an acre or two of land that no one wanted. If you have no land you have nothing: no food, no shelter, no warmth, no freedom, no life. If we remember this, we know that all economies begin to lie as soon as they assign a fixed value to land. People who have been landless know that the land is invaluable; it is worth everything. Pre-agricultural humans, of course, knew this too. And so, evidently, do the animals. It is a fearful thing to be without a territory. Whatever the market may say, the worth of the land is what it always was: It is worth what food, clothing, shelter, and freedom are worth; it is worth what life is worth. This perception moved the settlers from the Old World into the New. Most of our American ancestors came here because they knew what it was to be landless; to be landless was to be threatened by want and also by enslavement. Coming here, they bore the ancestral memory of serfdom. Under feudalism, the few who owned the land owned also, by an inescapable political logic, the people who worked the land.
Thomas Jefferson wrote in 1785 that it is not too soon to provide by every possible means that as few as possible shall be without a little portion of land. The small landholders are the most precious part of a state. . . He wrote as he did because he feared exactly the political theory that we now have: the idea that government exists to guarantee the right of the most wealthy to own or control the land without limit."
Bob could it be said that at this time we are no more than what could be call free-ranging serfs or free-ranging slaves thus deceived into thinking we are free? They say America has over 2 million laws I wonder if I transgressed one today?
Thanks for the Wendell Barry quote. While I admire persons such as Joel Salatin for their commitment to good stewardship, I admire people like you and Dave M much more. Mr. Salatin inherited some 400 acres and a farmhouse. You guys saved and chose to "pluck myself out of it all" by buying some land, and learning by doing.
I got my farm when I was 38 – indeed a poor 35 acre combo of mountain and river bottom. Hard lessons have been learned here, but good times have been had as well. During the dot com bubble I steadily worked to pay off my 5% mortgage. People thought I was crazy! "You could be making 10% with your money!" they said. My mortgage company? Washington Mutual.
‘Nuff said.
The thing we have to realize is that most of these events are totally out of our control, indeed even out of the control of the corporate rulers of our society. All empires since the dawn of civilization have followed more or less in this model of conquest, destruction, depletion of resources, and eventual collapse. Modern technology has simply accellerated our ability to to do this, so the collapse will probably be more dramatic and violent when it does happen. Only time will tell.
It helps to stay sober minded about all of this, and keep things in perspective, though. We are up against a lot, but we have advantages which the system does not.
This is, btw, the reason I refuse to support people like Ron Paul, who are wolf in sheep’s clothing. Pretending to be for our freedom, but is actually a nationalist, closetted racist, opponent of reproductive rights, etc… We’re not going to succeed by supporting politicians.
An invitation to all. Please listen to a live radio broadcast tommorrow morning at 0800 local time in Wisconsin on "Wisconsin Public Radio". It will be a live debate between Doug Gieryn and Mark McAfee. Doug is the Director of the Winnebago County Health Department and will voice the official Wisconsin Voice and challenge against raw milk.
I am not sure how much of a debate this will actually be. I think we will find much common ground and it will end up being a very good educational opportunity for everyone.
I called Doug this afternoon and we had a very nice chat. He has been thoroughly GOOGLED.
I think Wisconsin needs to hurry up and catch up with California and get some good producers and consumers connected. Where ever there is raw milk there is health and there is wealth….It is the economic stimulous plan and health care all rolled into one great and free program….tax free and local.
See you on the air in the Morning.
All the best,
Mark