At a NH Restaurant, a Waitress Asks, “And How Would You Like That Milk, Raw or Pasteurized?”; MA Hypocrisy
Monday, May 3, 2010 at 10:55AM 
Dinner at Bunten Farm Kitchen, Orford, NH.I was at a NH restaurant this past weekend when I heard the words in the heading above. This was an unusual restaurant, as you might expect--one operated by a farm family, way out in the country, within sight of the Connecticut River, just across from Vermont.
It looks like a restaurant from the inside, seating 35 or 40 people, except that it's just steps from both a barn and a farmhouse, and overlooking rolling pastures, where a herd of rare Devon cows graze. Most of its food comes from the premises, or from other farms within a few miles.
As fresh and tasty as the food was, I was taken with how natural those words sounded, when they occurred in real life. Pasteurized or raw milk? Grass-fed meat or grain-fed meat? Sugar or honey? The choices are endless, limited mainly by the demands of the marketplace. Someday in the not-too-distant future they may include: "Irradiated or non-irradiated spinach, cloned beef or non-cloned beef..."
Just listening in on a few of the conversations between the farm serving and cooking staff and restaurant patrons, the market at Bunten Farmhouse Kitchen is very interested in not only knowing where their food comes from, but in having a significant part of that food come from local sources.
Bruce Balch, the owner, went from table to table, telling people how the roasted pork (which was tender and succulent) came from a farm down the road, the fiddleheads (a spring veggie) from a few area farms, and the milk from his herd of 70 Devon cows, "the largest herd of Devons in the country," he said proudly.
Because his farm is also a milk plant, he's able to produce both pasteurized and raw milk, and sell it from the farm. I neglected to ask him which type of milk is most popular, but I have to presume the demand for the raw milk is fairly recent, since it's not listed on older menus posted on the web site.
Beyond the choice over milk, that experience at the Bunten Farmhouse made me realize how much I appreciate it when there's a relaxed attitude toward food and diet--or, to put it another way, how much I've come to resent dogma about nutrition and diet. The most obnoxious example, of course, is the U.S. Food and Drug Administration's dogma that raw milk is highly dangerous, and besides, there's no nutritional difference between raw and pasteurized milk. But it extends ever more widely in our culture.
Here are two recent examples:
1. Dr. Mark Hyman's anti-dairy rant. I heard him speak a few years ago, when his book, "Ultrametabolism", came out, and I thought he made a lot of sense with his concerns about carbs and sugar. Now, in a new article on Huffingon Post, he lambastes all forms of dairy, arguing it doesn't provide much calcium, and besides, it aggravates various chronic conditions like Crohn's and asthma. At one point he notes, "...many have begun to consider raw milk an alternative. But that isn't really a healthy form of dairy either ..." He concludes: "Try giving up all dairy. That means eliminate milk, cheese, yogurt, and ice cream for two weeks and see if you feel better. You should notice improvements with your sinuses, post-nasal drip, headaches, irritable bowel syndrome, energy, and weight. Then start eating dairy again and see how you feel. If you feel worse, you should try to give it up for life."
2. On the other side, the Weston A. Price Foundation in its recently published Winter issue of Wise Traditions, presents gobs of research designed to suggest that plant-based diets are potentially dangerous. One article concludes: "...plants bite back! Since they do, it's a good idea to treat them with respect. Fruits and vegetables add interest, color and taste to our diet, but don't overconsume."
Certainly part of what's going on here is that giving people a rigid approach to diet helps sell books, or magazines, or whatever. And maybe that's part of what's behind the growing inclination of the FDA, in particular, to tell us what not to eat--people are afraid, and the government is perfectly equipped to feed their fears.
As I've said a number of times, I not only believe we have the right to eat whatever foods we want, but that people's dietary and nutritional needs vary widely. Trying to dictate a one-size-fits-all approach doesn't work, no matter who is doing the dictating.
I'm inclined to go with what Canadian raw dairy farmer Michael Schmidt said at the Raw Milk Symposium in March: “Let them eat their fast foods and kill themselves. That’s their choice.”
***
Much as I thanked the FDA for articulating the nature of the struggle over food rights, I should also add a note of thanks to the smart guys and gals in the Massachusetts Department of Agricultural Resources for clarifying the hypocrisy behind the move to restrict raw milk access.
I was discussing the situation over the weekend with Winton Pitcoff, the raw milk expert at the Massachusetts chapter of the Northeast Organic Farming Association, expressing amazement that a state with a minuscule dairy industry and no illnesses since 1999 would take this matter on. He corrected me: "No illnesses of any kind since Massachusetts DAR took over responsibility for regulating raw milk, in 1993." The illnesses attributed to raw milk in 1999 occurred when some boy scouts visited a conventional dairy farm and drank unpasteurized milk destined for pasteurization--much different than if they had consumed milk destined for the raw-milk market. Those shouldn’t be mentioned in the same breath as statistics about consumers of raw milk from MDAR-licensed dairies, Winton correctly points out.
So the MA DAR will no doubt talk a lot about safety at the hearing in Boston next Monday over its proposed regulation to ban buying clubs and restrict raw milk access to those who pick it up at permitted dairies. But there is no safety "problem" in Massachusetts, never has been. In any event, whenever there is a safety problem anywhere, it's over an issue at the farm, not in transport of milk. Of course, the real point here is that this is about private contract rights. Raw milk drinkers who can't make it to the farm pay individuals who run buying clubs to pick up their milk--a private contractual arrangement. It's none of MDAR's business, or of the Big Dairy reps trying to influence MDAR to make this a national issue.
The issues couldn't be clearer. If you live in Massachusetts, let your legislators know that their pencil pushers are screwing up, big time, making a mountain out of...nothing. And attend the hearing next Monday, May 10, at 10 am at 100 Cambridge St, Conference Room A, 2nd Floor in Boston. Regardless of where you live, you can email the Massachusetts Commissioner of DAR, Scott Soares, scott.soares@state.ma.us.
***
There's more on the Massachusetts situation in an article I wrote for Huffington Post.
Reader Comments (33)
Just because there is no recent record of anyone becoming sick from raw milk doesn't mean it isn't a risk. There are plenty of instances in other states - it doesn't mean MA should ignore it because there have been none within its borders.
Improper transport of raw milk WILL increase the risks. With the increases in buying clubs, this risk is increasing and it makes sense for officials to respond proactively.
I think DAR is being particularly clumsy in its response. There are all types of buying clubs and the proposed regulations do nothing to say under what conditions they will allow cooperative buying, if at all.
I think cooperative buying (buying clubs) could be allowed. Raw milk officianados wold do better to try to figure out a way to address concerns with transport rather than creating some conspiracy theory around "big dairy". DAR would do well to come out with some clear rules that allow buying clubs and which control risks - improper transport namely.
And I pose this question to ANYONE who opposes Raw Milk consumption/sales because of health concerns.....
Just how many farmers (raw milk or otherwise) do you think will stay in business if they make their customers sick?
As Alice suggests, it was MDAR commissioner, Scott Soares, who volunteered he had had contacts with conventional dairy producers, and then refused to provide any details. That's not appropriate if it goes on while new regs are under consideration.
I guess my question to you is this: what evidence exists of improper transport of milk? No one, including MDAR, is making that accusation, so far as I know. MDAR has indicated concern about safety and risk, but not provided any evidence to back up its concerns. You mention illnesses in other states, but I'm not aware of any illnesses associated with raw milk being blamed on improper transport.
And Lykke,
Which raw milk web sites "tell consumers everything is fine"? The most popular one, from the Weston A. Price Foundation, warns consumers raw milk can be "contaminated, in situations conducive to filth and disease. Know your farmer!" (http://www.realmilk.com)
David
I don't think the DARs scope should go beyond the farm and into buying clubs. Where does it end? Should I install an Ethernet connection on my refrigerator so DAR can monitor the temperature? Would you want them to also regulate our ability to allow our neighbors to pick up other items for us at the grocery store, like say, raw chicken?
One does not need evidence of mistransport to suggest a need that there needs to be some guidance or ovesite of an activity.
I would suggest replacing the hyperbole and conspiracy theories with some suggestions on how to feasibly ensure that buying clubs are transporting appropriately. Now if you are jut picking up for a neighbor, this should clearly be exempt from oversite. However we all know that there are numerous buying clubs in which individuals pick up milk for large numbers of people, many of whom they don't even know personally.
There was NO evidence of "big dairy" involvement in the previous post.
Where is your evidence that milk is a high risk food, especially fresh grassfed milk?
Why would Scott Soares not open a docket after talking to big dairy like he is supposed to do?
Why did he violate the law? Is he incompetent or is he covering something up?
Where is your evidence that the milk is being transported improperly by buying clubs?
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Food_safety_storage?open
I can not answer for Soares and am not inclined to defend him. He seems fairly incompetent in replying to his own actions.
I did not saying buying clubs are transporting improperly. Sound public health policy dictates proactive measures to prevent illness. Would you prefer to wait until someone gets sick and then respond.
Neela speaks too much legaleeeeese for just any anti-raw milk-ette off the street... I wonder who employs you, Neela?? Must be MDAR since we never heard from you before David started writing about this issue.
What is your definition of improper storage and how would this result in raw milk’s so called "propensity to harbour pathogens"?
Raw milk is in a class of its own with no similarities to shellfish and meat. To categorizing it as such is a reflection of your inability to comprehend and or acknowledge the complex nature of the product.
Ken Conrad
Or perhaps Soares is covering up his ties to big ag and got caught in a lie. I think an investigation is in order here.
Who are you to dictate "sound" public health policy? What is sound public health policy? What is your basis and what makes you an expert? If there have been no sicknesses why bother? If the clubs are transporting properly, there is no need for regulation.
Why don't you get off your raw milk kick and try to do something that really makes a difference::
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/31/us/31meat.html?scp=1&sq=ammonia%20meat&st=Search
That means that the greatest risk to America is not eating high risk foods as often as possible.
Neela....who ever you are. You are obviously not understanding what makes up the immune system or how it works. We need bacteria badly in our diets or we will become immune depressed and die. The last people that died from milk died from pasteurized milk not raw milk. ( Whittier Farms 2007 Three deaths )
Mark
Please show me evidence of ANY food borne illness related to raw milk in the last 10 years? Oh, you can't? That's because there aren't any -- not because raw milk advocates are participating in cover-up. Contrast that with those who have been sickened by pasturized milk:
http://www.realmilk.com/foodborne.html
I have been consuming raw milk through a herd share for the last 5 years. Neither my family, friends, other shareholders nor myself has ever been sicked by it. We all take turns schlepping to the farm to pick it up and distribute it, and in the summer, it's hotter than Hadies here. So, in effect, we have a delivery/buying group model here in VA, and it's working just fine without government regulation, thank-you-very-much. If my friends who transport the milk aren't doing it safely, then it's my job to set them straight -- NOT GOVT.
I want to know what business it is of any government, state or federal, as to what I eat or drink. If I choose to eat raw, unprocessed food, and have a friend pick it up and I assume the risks (it is my right CHOOSE what food I buy), then what right does government have to regulate me? It's none of their f'ing business!!!!!
Take for instance, the FDA -- they do not have my best interest and health in mind with the regulations that are already on the books. According to them, I can eat/drink as much high fructose corn syrup, ding dongs, ho-ho's, Doritos and all the other corn-derived SHIT that I can stuff in my shopping bag, but if I drink raw milk, I'm going to die from food borne illness. It is for these reasons that I do not trust them, or believe anything they say about what is healthy or not. I know what is best for my family and me, and I will feed us accordingly. The FDA be damned.
That website makes the statement about outbreaks in a shallow attempt to appear credible and reasonable. Then it goes on to deny every outbreak (including those with documented filth). Can you give a single non-Mexican style cheese outbreak they don't deny?
I hear you on the rehashing, but new people have joined the discussion. Welcome to our Merry-go-round, new folks.
Back on subject....please explain and excuse the three milk deaths in MA that were caused by Pasteurized milk at Whittier Farms in 2007.
Right back at ya.....
The fight is about the right for Americans to build our own immune systems. The fight is about whether drugs are the cure for anything whether they are immune destructive...this is about the DOLLAR VOTE removal of a protected get rich and kill people scheme pushed by the FDA and drug companies.
We in the raw milk and whole food community get it....we get what it takes to develop and sustain a strong pathogen proof immune system.
We get it that you do not get it..... But what we do not get is why you should care about what we freely choose to do?
Why do you hate freedom so very much????
( Joel Salatin quote )
Mark
With rare exception, people don't hate freedom...they fear it.
People like lykke, cp, et al don't really hate frdoms, they are simply terrified to be personally responsible for4 anything, themselves included, and since they know how silly they would look being fearful all by themselves, needing a nanny state to keep them in emotional equilibrium, they need to surround themselves with others being protected by the nanny state in ordr to validate themselves.
They are really a sad little fearful group, more to be pitied than reviled...but I do wish they would get the hell out of my food basket.
BH
http://www.JuicyMaters.com
If anything, as raw milk sits out at warm temperatures, it become MORE safe. Lykke and I already had this conversation on a previous thread, but I will re-hash the science of it.
The natural lactic acid producing bacteria in raw milk consume sugars (lactose) and convert them into lactic acid. This pH drop in the milk actually tends to cause pathogenic organisms to expire, and definetly inhibits their reproduction. Eventually, given time, even the lactic acid bacteria will kill themselves from the acidity they have created. This principle is the reason that raw milk cheese is supposed to be aged 60 days. It is also the reason that aged cheese are more flavorful, because the lactic bacteria in the cheese die, relasing enzymes which breakdown the milk protiens into peptides and ammino acids.
These lactic acid producing bacteria, already naturally present in raw milk, are dormant at refrigerator temperatures. However, pyscrotrophic bacteria (bacteria able to reproduce at refregerator temps) such as Listeria Monocytogenes, and E. Coli 0157:H7 are able to reproduce at refrigerator temps. Another class of pyscrotrophic bacteria that are non-pathogenic, are spoilage bacteria such as pseudomonas floresences, which is able to degrade the milk casien directly into ammonia (skipping the peptides and amino acids) -- actually RAISING the pH of the milk to near neutral 7 (fresh milk has a pH of about 6.7, slightly acidic) making it even more hopsitable to pathogens such as listeria.
So if anything, raw milk becomes MORE safe as it sits at warm temperatures, because of the action of lactic-acid producing bacteria. IF there were a pathogen in the milk, it would quickly be outcompeted and excluded by the more aggressive lactic acid producing bacteria at warm temperatures. However, if there is no pathogen in the milk, one will not suddenly appear out of nowhere simply because it is held at a warm temperature. On the other hand, if listeria was present and the milk was held at cold temperatures, the listeria would actually have a competative edge over the good bacteria, because of the temperature.
In other words -- Your concerns about the temperature the milk is held at are totally bunk. In France, raw milk for traditional protected raw milk cheeses (i.e. Comte, Camembert de Normandie, Brie de Meaux, etc...) is FORBIDDEN to be held at temperatures below 50F, because of the reasons that I describe above.
The deaths from listeria due to drinking contaminated pasteurized milk is tragic.
Listed below are high risk foods that have been involved in multiple outbreaks; this is why they are considered high risk.
What percent of American’s:
eat hamburgers, 90%?
eat lettuce, 80% ?
eat tomatoes, 80%?
eat cantaloupes, 70%?
eat lunch meats, 90% ?
I'm guessing at that percentages, but my point is that a high percentage of Americans consume these products. Statistically there are going to be more illnesses and deaths. It is appalling that our food supply is unsafe. Even though pasteurized milk is not considered a high risk food, a very high percent of the population consume this food product –80%? Unfortunately, mistakes are bound to happen.
What percent of American’s drink raw milk 1-3%, yet the outbreaks are not proportional to the number of people consuming this product. Thank God there have been no deaths. What would the outbreak rate be if 80% of the population drank raw milk? What would the death rate be?
Mark, I continue to be amazed at your ability to spin the truth. I listened to your interview with Joe Mercola. So now raw milk illnesses are caused by desperate, immune depressed individuals begging a farmer to give them raw milk that is intended for pasteurization? I noticed your lack of discussion about the practice of outsourcing and it’s link to outbreaks.
Fact:
•Chris Martin and Lauren Herzog drank raw milk from a regulated dairy and the milk was sold retail (E.coli 0157:H7)
•Mari Tardiff drank raw milk from an unlicensed cow share program (the type that WAPF promotes) and they tested tested milk (Campylobacter)
•Kalee Prue drank raw milk from a regulated dairy and the milk was sold retail (E.coli 0157:H7)
•Nicole Riggs drank milk from purchased from a farm (legal in that state) (E.coli 0157:H7)
•Larry Pedersen drank the same milk as Nicole Riggs, but it was sold illegally in a grocery store (E.coli 0157:H7)
•The Dee Creek Outbreak involved an unlicensed cow share program (the type that WAPF promotes) (E.coli 0157:H7)
•Grace Harbor Farms Outbreak involved regulated milk sold retail (E.coli 0157:H7)
All reports of outbreaks can be found here http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/outbreak-tables/
This blog has turned into a raw milk blog. I wish the topic could stay focused on raw milk safety. Outbreaks are happening and solutions need to be found. Steve, Scott and Tim are attempting to do this. I commend them for their efforts.
I would also like to state emphatically that I am not Melissa Herzog. It is not fair to Melissa and her family that someone who blogs here keeps making this claim. It is very disrespectful. Please stop.
cp