Any politician or regulator worth his previous year’s pension credits knows how to take a minor incident, or even create an incident out of nothing, so as to rile up the masses and divert them from their real problems.
Russian and Polish politicians were experts in the 1700s and 1800s of blaming a Jew for a theft or other minor crime, and inciting pogroms in which hundreds or thousands would be killed in murderous rampages. In the U.S. South of the 1800s and early 1900s, a black might be accused of being less than “respectful,” setting up lynchings of the accused, and others, by crazed throngs.
With today’s more educated and Internet-informed populace, the politicians and regulators have to be more sophisticated in how they handle their incitements and power grabs. But it is increasingly clear that we are all witness to cases of incitement and power grabs in the crackdown on raw milk. They are happening in seeming slow motion, over a number of years, but there’s no denying the ever-more-abusive and intensive nature of what’s happening. They shouldn’t be a surprise, since the U.S. Centers for Disease Control in its goody-goody “Healthy People 2020”–its top health-related goals for the next ten years–has made #9 under “food safety” to “increase the number of states that have prohibited sale or distribution of unpasteurized dairy products.”
Once the fraud is entirely clear to everyone, it will be too late to bring back the dairies intimidated or otherwise forced out of the raw milk business. By that time, the agriculture and food safety types will be smug in their satisfaction that they’ve come down hard on people they detest to begin with, and denied availability to everyone else who seeks the health benefits of unprocessed foods. (Yes, we can all make our own kombucha, but there’s no way many of us can handle having a cow or goat; even if we want one, zoning rules and other technicalities will prevent that.)
The latest outrage is taking place in Minnesota. There, the Minnesota Department of Agriculture is on what can only be described as a rampage. The current newsletter of the Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund has details, in an article by its president, Pete Kennedy, of the shutdown of the Traditional Foods Warehouse, a private distributor of locally-produced foods to members, and the execution of a search warrant on a Minneapolis-area family whose only crime seems to be that it allowed farmer Michael Hartmann to park his truck and distribute milk to buyers.
And now we learn that the Minnesota Department of Agriculture goons searched a second raw dairy–one not linked to any illnesses. According to a report from Minnesota Public Radio, the agents were acting on information they obtained from the search of Traditional Foods Warehouse. What a bunch of Sherlock Holmes types! Now that they’ve got names of producers of nutrient-dense foods, who knows where their undercover investigations might lead. What a perverted way to earn a pension–harass struggling farms and put the owners out of business. And what fun adventures it must be to tell your children about all the good you are doing when you come home each evening.
Michael Hartmann’s dairy is likely the source of the E.coli 0157:H7 that sickened eight people. But that doesn’t justify a wholesale crackdown…unless you were just looking for an excuse to carry one out, and trying to create a climate of fear and anger toward farmers.
The corporate media, not surprisingly, are fanning the flames. Consider this start to an editorial in the Minneapolis StarTribune: “There’s a dangerous sense of superiority shared by Minnesotans who buy raw milk and serve it to their families. They don’t go to supermarkets like regular people…(They) refer to supermarket milk as ‘dead milk…’ “
I can remember when elites in the South worried about blacks’ sense of superiority. Only they used the word “uppity” to get their point across.
We’ve seen this movie before, and I chronicle much of it in The Raw Milk Revolution: Behind America’s Emerging Struggle Over Food Rigts. We saw it in Ohio in 2006, when the authorities used a few illnesses attributed (but never proved) to raw dairy owner Carol Schmitmeyer. She eventually put a stop to the craziness by getting a state judge to rule in her favor. Michigan tried the same tactic in its “sting operation” against Richard Hebron in late 2006, but authorities eventually pulled back in the face of popular opposition, and evidence the illnesses that sparked the crackdown came from pasteurized milk.
In Wisconsin, authorities used some illnesses at the Zinniker farm to give them an excuse to launch their ongoing crackdown. They, too, are being slowed by growing popular opposition and now civil disobedience by farmer Vernon Hershberger. In Massachusetts, authorities have used mere wishful thinking about illnesses to hand out cease-and-desist orders to owners of buying clubs, and threaten the economic viability of raw dairy farms…and spark strong resistance from consumers.
Will Minnesota consumers stand up and resist the outrages now taking place? Or will they be moved by corporate representatives like the Minneapolis StarTribune?
A couple of weeks ago, the Minnesota Department of Health said it respected food rights. It’s clear now, those were just empty phrases. The words that count are coming from the CDC and the FDA, and the actions that count are coming from their lackeys in Minnesota and other states.
What’s to stop them at just dairy?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/7857310/Giant-salmon-will-be-first-GM-animal-available-for-eating.html
"They hope that the sterile GM salmon can offer an efficient and safe way to breed salmon in fish farms, "
Uh, excuse me, if the creature is sterile, how then does it breed?
I have so much to learn. I am one of those who need to learn "handling a cow" . Is it illegal if someone comes on your farm and milks their cow and takes the milk? Or if someone comes on my farm and takes milk from my icebox?
I have little doubt that the questions you are asking are part of a list being maintained by CDC and FDA bureaucrats somewhere, as in: herdshares, cowshares, LLC, buying clubs, co-ops, private food clubs, on-farm sales…check, check, check, check, check, check, check, as each one is targeted and hassled. Last on the list come the items you’ve mentioned: "Is it illegal if someone comes on your farm and milks their cow and takes the milk? Or if someone comes on my farm and takes milk from my icebox?" Hmmm, some bureaucrat may be assigning a Justice Department lawyer to research the legal precedents on those as we write.
Make no mistake about it. This is all being directed from Washington. I used to think that was too conspiratorial, but no longer. They are watching us, and trying to force us into their box.
David
The goons have lost and they know it, that is why we are seeing these heavy handed tactics. The struggle will get more intense as they try and flex their muscle. Raw milk farmers, and their customers have tremendous meddle, and the threats and intimidation might knock out some of the weaker ones….but most that I know that produce the stuff are willing to risk jail, fines or financial ruin to keep doing the right thing. Seems to me that the FTCLDF needs to take advantage of this and push for more support….it appears that the need for their service is becoming even more needed.
It will be an uphill battle fighting the corporate oligarchy, they have tremendous power and resources…but for the health of future generations, the dead food lie must be revealed, and those that are truly sickening the population must be uncovered. If the idiots would just leave us alone we could both exist in harmony…but it appears that we are going to have to fight these clowns at every turn (state by state).
But as always, the harder they try to crackdown on raw milk, the more people become interested in it, and the more it makes the regulators look like goons to the average person.
Our job is to keep the issue in the public eye as much as possible, and be very well-organized at the grassroots level. This has been a winning strategy in Wisconsin, despite the DATCP and dairy processing industry onslaught, and can be a winning strategy elsewhere.
BAN ON RAW MILK SALES NEEDED TO PROTECT FAMILIES
And perhaps one could also say ban on corporations ban on politians ban on lawyers ban on preachers ban on educators ban on Wall Street needed to SAVE ANY OF US FROM THIS DESTRUCTIVE SYSTEM???
RAW MILK OR RAW DEAL
"ALL NATURAL CAN BE DANGEROUS"
And the Hartman farm is the source of the E. coil "outbreak" if one "believes" the party line news stories.
KUDOS to Miguel for providing us with another side of the science story yours is more believable and there is no money trail to follow and that is one big trump card for sure.
Thanks Miguel
Here is a CRUSADE for the antiraw milk folks their zeal would be helpful with this problem.
Medical caused deaths in America.
An interview of Dr Barbara Starfield who shook up the medical world with her stunning report in 2000 which is now only ho hum but nearly1 million Americans have needlessly died since then!!
ANTIRAW MILK FOLKS DO YOU CARE ENOUGH TO TACKLE THIS REAL PROBLEM
This kind of drivel is to be expected from the Star. But it is also a pretty good window into how TPTB view things.
Its a classic case of competing paradigms and there are very few who are able to reject the paradigm they were taught at university when their ego and paycheck depend on it. But since they can’t logically address our point of view they must fall back on derision and a sense of self superiority.
More research, this from Dr. Stuart Levy of Tufts University, showing that bacteria act with a group dynamic in order to survive in the face of threats, and that bacteriophobes, by attempting to kill bacteria with antibacterial environmental sanitization, actually INCREASE their risk of infection (and everybody else’s as well by stimulating the creating of resistant bugs, and harming innate immunity).
Of course upon hearing these reports the FDA discovers that they ought to be regulating handsoaps.
Don Wittlinger has been right all along. Our systems are insane.
"Raw milk presents a serious health risk," says Minnesota Health Commissioner Dr. Sanne Magnan. "This risk isn’t a matter of personal opinion; it’s an established scientific fact. Drinking raw milk or eating products made from raw milk can expose consumers to a variety of organisms that can result in anything from a few days of diarrhea to kidney failure and death."
Michigan fresh unprocessed whole milk work group position:
http://www.miffs.org/MIfuwmilk/workgroupparticipants.htm
" Is there something uniquely hazardous about milk?
Milk is not inherently hazardous. Fresh milk from the mammary glands is one of the most nutritious and complete foods available to people. Although milk contains water and many other nutrients to sustain growth of bacteria — whether beneficial or pathogenic — many other foods have similar characteristics that can readily support the growth of disease-producing bacteria: fresh and processed meat, sea food and foods consumed fresh such as produce, coconut milk and fruit juices. To enhance safe products, animal-based products require good handling practices. Milk is a liquid that is harvested from animals at a body temperature conducive to bacterial contamination from the environment. No food, including milk, is completely safe."
Question: If raw milk " presents a serious health risk" "is an established scientific fact",
The Minnesota dept of health has an obligation to present the science that supports this statement.If this statement is left unsupported ,it leaves us with the feeling that the testing the health department does is biased from the start.If the health dept wants us to trust their results they should be open to a discussion of the science that Dr. Magnan is referring to.
Is there science that backs their position or is it just a matter of repeating the same phrase over and over enough so that we start to believe it is true?
It seems to be epidemic among young people these days.Other than obtaining your milk from a healthy animal that doesn’t have johnes disease,how can you find milk that is safe to drink?This is just one of the many reasons not to rely on pasteurization to fix all of the problems caused by wrong feeding and management in confinement dairies.
http://www.johnes.org/biology/resistance.html
These diseases are not caused by a bacteria.The bacteria are cleaning up dead and dying cells that are a result of poor nutrition,mostly a lack of minerals in the diet.The intestinal lining cells have the shortest lifespan of any cell in the body.They need to be replaced regularly.When the materials to create new cells are lacking,we start to have problems maintaining the integrity of the lining.
Cows suffer from mineral deficiencies too.When they do ,their milk is low in minerals too.They need to get their minerals from plants grown on mineral rich soil,not from a bag of pulverized rocks.
Everyone needs to learn the phrase, "I don’t consent to any searches."
I’ve noticed on the video coverage of various raids, that they always seem to send middle-aged women to do the nastiest work. "Get out there, seize their truck and make them dump their milk. We’ll stay here in the office and cover our behinds." Lovely place to work I imagine.
‘ An information backdrop to why this book is so important and why you should read the book is the following statement: Dr. Linus Pauling (1901 1994), brilliant scientist and winner of two Nobel Prizes stated:
You can trace every sickness, every disease and every ailment to a mineral deficiency.
18) Cellular damage because of malnutrition has always been the primary cause of the classic diseases in animal husbandry: rinderpest, brucellosis, foot-and-mouth disease, Johnes disease, etc. (p 37)
19) .and almost all the chemicals used in agriculture can injure chromosomes, either by altering the chemistry of a single gene so that the gene conveys improper information, called point mutation, or by actually breaking the chromosomes, called deletion. (p 37)
59) Health maintenance must fall under the purview of the farmer first of all modern medicine has a habit of making incredible assumptions. (p 78)
81) Chromium (especially in the form of chromium picolinate) is referred to as the master regulator of insulin signs of possible deficiency include diabetes . and depression. (p 121)
85) The greatest depletion of magnesium and other minerals that creates havoc with people is the consumption of phosphoric acid, which is found in popular colas causes rapid depletion of magnesium This causes the depletion of selenium. Upsets the calcium metabolism and disturbs all the minerals (p 132)
86) The center of the chlorophyll molecule is magnesium. If you remove the magnesium molecule from the center of chlorophyll, and insert an iron molecule in its place, you now have hemoglobin. Thats how closely tied is the chlorophyll-hemoglobin connection. The whole basis of the food chain is the sunlight-chlorophyll-magnesium factor. The cow eats grass. She avails herself of that instant conversion, giving man the head of the biotic pyramidmeat and milk. It is a very efficient systemsunlight to meat! The mineral inventory found in beef is awesome. These great natural benefits are canceled out when the cow is restricted to a feedlot, fed carbohydrates, bypass protein, cattle cake, and bicarbonate of soda. (p 179)
http://www.wheatgrasskits.com/40pointsofwheatgrass.htm
cp
I’ve hung many bags of TPN, IVFs and taken gallons of blood and stool samples. a horrid illness.
http://www.whatsonmyfood.org/
If the govt entities were so concerned about our children, they wouldn’t allow them to be poisoned in so many ways. I didn’t see the GT kombucha in the co-op on Sunday. They had moved things around, so I may have missed it.
Magnesium is just one mineral that is required for health, it plays many roles:
gives rigidity AND flexibility to bones,
increases bioavailability of calcium, regulates/normalizes blood pressure,
prevents/reverses kidney stone formation, promotes restful sleep,helps prevent congestive heart failure, eases muscle cramps/spasms, lowers serum cholesterol levels/triglycerides, decreases insulin resistance, can prevent artherosclerosis/stroke, relieves fibromyalgia/chronic pain, treats asthma/emphysema, encourages elimination, prevents osteoporosis,etc
But a poor diet of processed foods and a stressful lifestyle can lead to mineral deficiencies, including magnesium. If you ARE deficient in magnesium, you may notice a wide range of symptoms."
Magnesium Deficiency Symptoms
Because magnesium is active in so many different processes in your body, magnesium deficiency symptoms are varied and can include:
* Insomnia
* Anxiety, hyperactivity, restlessness
* Constipation
* Muscle spasms, twitches, soreness
* Difficulty swallowing
* Back aches
* Headaches
* Chest tightness and difficulty breathing
* Heart palpitations
* High blood pressure
* Extreme fatigue
* Osteoporosis"
Did they move it to the beer case 🙂 ? I don’t know much about the beverage, but found the conflicting reports relating to alcohol content interesting from the last post on this blog. And, same thing in this older thread on a product called Synergy. I wonder how much "buzz" is in the drink.
http://caloriecount.about.com/synergy-kombucha-fruit-drink-ft7093
MW
MW might be right. When GTs returns, we might be buying from the beer cooler and you will need to be 21 to purchase it.
cp
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/28/AR2010062802089.html
http://www.latebloomersfarm.com/index.php/2010/06/just-another-uppity-raw-milk-drinker/
Thanks for the pointer, David.
So will we be seeing more articles saying that our health care system is "inherently dangerous" and that those who participate in it are playing Russian Roullette with their health?
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h26y0ad8mTU-Zs0tkIlBF3Abu_YwD9GKC1DO0
Americans Are Treated and Overtreated to Death by Marilynn Marchione
"Americans never give up hoping for a miracle" But are they looking for that miracle and placing that hope where it can not be found it would seem like that is what the numbers are telling us.
"Do microbial interactions and cultivation media decrease the accuracy of Salmonella surveillance systems and outbreak investigations?"
"The bias introduced by culture could be dramatically biasing Salmonella surveillance systems and hindering traceback investigations during Salmonella outbreaks."
J Food Prot. 2009 Apr;72(4):707-13
Singer RS, Mayer AE, Hanson TE, Isaacson RE.
Department of Veterinary and Biomedical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine,
This is just more evidence that bacteria do not behave in the way that epidemiologists think they do.
"In all experiments, the strain of Salmonella Newport was the most competitive, regardless of the starting concentration and cultivation protocol. One strain of Salmonella Typhimurium was rarely detected in competition, even when it was the only strain present in bovine feces. Overall, the probability of detecting a specific Salmonella strain had little to do with its starting concentration in the sample"
David, have there been any citzen responses to the MDH activities in Minnesota?
And- I realize the importance of awareness and education, however one’s point of view regarding scientific theory and practice, the extensive postings regarding microbial evolution and pathogenesis will all be moot if the legal and political issues identified by David, Pete Kennedy and many others are not systematically challenged and resolved.
http://www.alternet.org/health/147318/100%2C000_americans_die_each_year_from_prescription_drugs%2C_while_pharma_companies_get_rich/
Every 5 minutes an American dies as a direct result of medically approve and correctly taken drugs and is a low estimate according to this article.
And what was it 2 people claimed to have died from raw milk in the last 10 years? And they send in the guns badges and court orders to stop the raw milk farmers.
IS THIS INSANE OR NOT?
So what on the Salmonella Newport paper? It shows that we can make epidemiological links within the limits of technology. When there is a link, like the Hartman dairy, it is solid. The other investigations where no link is found go in the "unknown file." Over 50% of foodborne disease outbreaks are never attributed to a specific cause, for reasons ranging from lack of technology (described in the paper you cite) to lack of motivation/resources to track them down. The fact that there are unsolved cases doesn’t change the fact that a few are figured out, and hopefully lead to prevention measures that benefit everyone.
MW
The so-called evidence from Hartman dairy would be a lot more credibe if the Minnesota authorities weren’t using it as a pretext for further punitive actions against parties not responsible for the disease, or not even connected to Hartman Dairy.
We saw this same situation in Wisconsin, where the outbreak from Zinniker farm lead to a state-wide crackdown on raw milk sales. Additionally, I know of at least one supposed victim of the Zinniker campylobacter outbreak who hadn’t consumed the raw milk in two weeks prior to getting sick, but was included in the group of 35 victims in the epidemeological report. Campylobacter is not like listeria — it does not have an incubation time of 2 weeks, the last time I checked.
It is very clear that there is systematic bias against raw milk, and I am not willing to rule out the possibility that evidence is being manipulated, and that techniques are not sound. Miguel’s critiques of epidemeological techniques are very compelling, and only demonstrate the fundamental flaws in germ theory.
Hygene and food safety in raw milk production are important. But I do not for one second believe that the health authorities are interested in these things. They are only interested in collective punishment and prohibition. The public health authorities are, in fact, the enemies of true public health. Our current problem of wide-spread chronic lifestyle diseases is in large part due to our modern, commercialized, industrialized, hyper-sterile food system which fears nature and natural systems, rather than embracing them.
Minnessotans better get their act together and start organizing a rapid grassroots response to the pending food fascism from their own health authorities.
Sen Tom Coburn asked Kagan specifically if government has the constitutional power under the commerce clause to tell people what they have to eat.
Kagan was ducking and weaving, trying to be a moving target, but ultimately allowed that the government probably did have such power.
At the risk of being ridiculed, I’ll quote Sarah Palin…"How’s that hopey-changey thing workin’ out?
Bob BubbaBozo Hayles
I believe that the study said that the salmonella are altered by "microbial interactions and cultivation media".This goes back to the fundamental assumption that bacteria do not change DNA significantly due to "microbial interactions and cultivation media".When we question this assumption ,the "links" that you refer to are gone.What does it matter that you can find bacteria in two different places with matching PFGE profiles if the original bacteria you are trying to trace does not maintain it’s PFGE profile in the culture medium.You can’t trace it back if it keeps changing profiles.PFGE is the gold standard for distinguishing strains.It is NOT valid to use it to trace back a strain to it’s source.
The current methods used to distinguish isolates and strains are more than adequate to challenge poorly conceived and crappy studies–if one has access to primary data-transparency???? It is also important to get things straight in regard to even terminology. An "isolate" comes from a wild population and has unique distinguishable characteristics–A "strain" is considered unique and distinguishable BUT the same biological classification of a strain found to be the "same" in burger from Alaska and spinach from Texas–may not be from the same point source. Strains are distinguishable by Serotype, Biotype (any biochemical test not serological, enzyme profiles, genomic sequencing etc.) or even Morphotype (essentially they look different, take up a stain differently).
It is very seductive to read abstracts or see compilations of text lifted from abstracts of scientific papers that hammer a specific point of view-that is not the same as reading and challenging the data or conclusions of the papers. That takes time, access to the papers and an understanding the body of work that the studies stand on. (Understanding here means something beyond "Google.")That is MW’s point regarding the Newport paper. Or for that matter citing Pauling’s work-whom I have studied for decades and even gave as gifts some of his signed books-without understanding the broader context. Interesting as it is and seductive as it is to debate and discuss these things-it does nothing for those caught in the cross hairs of legal abuses and outrages.
I’ll argue-it is far more powerful to place side by side the contradictions–for example…the earlier posting regarding Michigans working group balanced statement regarding raw milk as not being inherently dangerous, contrast with the Minnesota situation of unpasteurized milk being a death food. Whoa……looks like a difference in opinion to me–and what are those differences based on? Sure is not mineralized soils or some spontaneous generation theory of microbial pathogenesis. Might it be policy, and maybe some vested influence?
I really don’t care what marginal, appropriate, or bizarre scientific theories people champion or whether they worship some Cosmic Muffin. All will be moot if individual rights and freedoms are continually eroded and we see further deterioration of our health and well being.
What are the goals?
Kagan is trying to be confirmed, and shes talking to those who she is trying to placate…do you really believe she would tell those who have power that they don’t have power (frankly the commerce clause can be used to restrict trade of anything…food included). These restrictions don’t tell people what they ‘have’ to eat…it restricts what people can have access to, and if you don’t have it, how can you eat it. The government does have to power to restrict food options….what they do with that power, how it is applied, is the key. Do they do it for the benefit of the food processors, the grocery stores and other special interests…or do they use the power for the benefit of the individual citizen. Problem is that government, both conservative and liberal, are beholding to the money, the large corporations…and are not serving the good of the general public.
Hopey changey is sure better than more of what we had the previous eight years.
The use of any theory or opinion or even perceived facts as excuses to limit natural rights is a crime and a sin, yet that is the very ethos of modern American government. Today every good idea must become a law. And when that sort of central-government controlling mindset takes hold there is no end to the chains that will be forged. Today government gives permission to sell the fruits of ones labor, to build ones home, to work. In this environment should it be any surprise that that same government would prohibit people from obtaining plain, unprocessed milk? Or force us to use harmful chemicals in our food production that encourage pathogenesis?
Rightsindividual sovereigntyare primary for the same reason that we are a republic and not a democracy. Natural rights protect individuals from the tyranny of individuals, minorities, and most important, majorities. Our modern knee-jerk obeisance to the pronouncements of experts, certifiers, licensers, permitters, legislators, and all the rest, shows that we have forgotten this most basic precept. We have succumbed to group think. Don Wittlingers linked article by Marilyn Marchione shows just one of the terrible consequences. All those cases of sick people made sicker by medical care undoubtedly occurred because the involved parties knew they were doing the right thing. They have been deceived. They have swallowed hook line and sinker the false pronouncements of an invented system, and government sees nothing else to do about it but suffocate the few, small voices speaking up in dissent.
A return to the natural rule of individual sovereignty would make this nation stronger, wiser, healthier, and far more humane.
milk farmer…its no harder to have respect for that than it is to have respect for a coward who hides behind an anonymous screen name, letting others like Max Kane, Michael Schmidt, et al do the heavy lifting for them. That is much like a welfare queen suckling at the teat of other’s labour.
Even the ambulance chaser Marler, garbage that I think he is, is up front about who he is.
Bob BUBBABOZO Hayles
At least I can still buy a plane ticket and fly anywhere in the country….although with my commitment to my herd, it is unlikely that I will.
We’ve beaten this horse to death here…and those that concentrate on the signature rather than the words written obviously have weak arguments to make. Wanna try again, this time with something more substantial?
Yet that is exactly what you did, milk farmer.
"Bozo….it’s hard to have any respect for anyone that quotes Sarah Palin….(especially one with a clown of a nickname)"
Look behind you milk farmer…that glass house/throwing stones thing is biting you in the ass.
"I don’t hire anyone to milk my cows for me, throw hay, or clean the water troughs, or bottle or deliver my goods…."
True…but you DO let others fight your battles for you, rather than having the intestinal fortitude to fight, or help fight, them yourself. Your actions are really little different than cp’s. You both hide behind pseudonyms, and wish for others to take care of you…the nanny state government in her case, and the nanny of others fighting your fight that you are too scared to fight for yourself.
Neither of you could define personal responsibility with a Webster’s Dictionary and a 6 month head start. You both want to suckle at a teat…her the govt, and you folks like Kane, Schmidt, and the FTCLDF.
Bob BUBBABOZO Hayles
For me, it comes down to the fact that anything an anonymous person says about him/herself is unverifiable, and therefore not trustworthy.
"I’m a scientist."
"I work hard on my farm."
It’s all just a bunch of meaningless words blowing in the wind. For all we know, they could all be the same person.
I’m just a consumer that tries to pay attention to these milk issues, so I don’t think any of the commenters here actually know me. However, some who read this blog might, and if anyone wanted to contact me they probably could if they tried hard enough. By using my real name, I’ve allowed for the possibility that someone might actually try to verify my support of my own words.
For reasons such as this, Bob’s claims have infinitely more value than "milk farmer’s." Anonymous words are often just wasted space.
I think that Bob Hayles and milk farmer are actually on the same side, so let’s not descend into fighting amongst ourselves here. United we stand, divided we fall.
I especially sympathize with any producer who prefers to remain anonymous. They have special reason to feel vulnerable, in addition to the usual concerns of Internet safety and privacy.
The recent re-focus on rights keeps the issues where they belong. The scientific discussions are useful, but all of us raw milk advocates need to keep the dialogue returning to rights if we are to succeed in our aim of freely available raw milk. For me personally, as a raw milk consumer and advocate, the latest string of crackdowns only renews my commitment and determination.
Shana Milkie (my real name – ironic, isn’t it?)
How about attacking the big boys instead of the poor? I think there are plenty of ultra-rich corporate CEO’s, ESPECIALLY at the milk processing companies, that far more deserve our insults than milk farmer or welfare recipients.
How’s this for a start — Gregg Engles, the overpaid CEO of Dean Foods, which controls 90% of the market in fluid milk distribution, and 40% of the total raw milk market (or should I say, pre-pastuerized milk) in the U.S. His salary last year was $66 million, while the dairy farmers that make him rich are going bankrupt.
Check out the MilkWeed, a muckraking publication about corruption in the dairy industry — http://www.themilkweed.com/Feature_MW%2006-2010%20Antitrust%20Special.pdf
(FYI — the Milkweed was the first to uncover secret Monsanto documents about their own research on rBGH back in the late 1980’s.)
I suppose the French were allies in WWII…a very few. Most just sat back waving white flags at the Germans until others came to their aid…then, like milk farmer, they gladly took advantage of what others had won for them.
If that’s what our side has as allies, we are lost now.
Bob BubbaBOZO Hayles
I totally agree that there’s nothing inherently wrong with remaining anonymous, and that some may have very good reasons for doing so. Anonymous commenting provides a way for those who would like to protect their identities to contribute to constructive discussions by providing useful information or critiquing arguments.
I just think it’s very inappropriate when they go beyond that and appeal to authority, derail conversations, or mock the usernames of others – all of which have happened here recently. I especially detest the first.
By the way, that’s an awesome last name!
http://www.thedenverchannel.com:80/health/24101553/detail.html
cp
And in France, people get mad when Lactallis (a major milk processing corporation) proposes changing the laws for Camembert di Normandie to ALLOW for thermal-treatment (sub-pastuerization) of the milk. Fortunately Lactallis lost that battle, and Camembert di Normandie is still required to be made with raw milk.
It’s amazing the comparison, the huge amount of illnesses and contamination between raw dairy and others. Raw dairy doesn’t appear to be the problem as other ‘foods’.
A Longmont, Colorado goat dairy that has been ordered to stop distributing raw milk products after 16 people became ill after drinking milk. Two children who drank goat milk from the Billy Goat Dairy required hospitalization, Boulder County Public Health reported Wednesday. Of the people who reported becoming ill from consuming the milk products, lab tests confirmed the presence of Campylobacter and E. coli O157:H7, the health department said.
Health department officials in Minnesota this month reported five E. coli O157:H7 infections linked to drinking raw milk from a dairy in Gibbon, Minnesota. All of the sick were infected with a strain of bacteria that has the same pulsed field gel electrophoresis (PFGE) pattern, or DNA fingerprint. One infected child developed Hemolytic Uremic Syndrome (HUS), a potentially deadly complication.
Counting Colorado and Minnesota, there have now been at least ten outbreaks of illness tied to raw milk since January 2010. The other states with outbreaks include Nevada, Utah (two outbreaks), New York, and Pennsylvania. There was also a multistate outbreak with illnesses confirmed in Michigan, Indiana, and Illinois. Washington has had two as well. And, even worse, these outbreaks involved at least three different pathogens: E. coli O157:H7; Salmonella, and Campylobacter. More specifically:
In January, a dairy farm in New York was linked to five Campylobacter infections.
Another outbreak of Campylobacter was reported in February in Pennsylvania. State health officials there said approximately ten people became ill after drinking raw milk. One of the ill developed Guillain – Barre Syndrome, became paralyzed, and is still hospitalized.
In March, raw milk caused at least seventeen Campylobacter infections in Michigan, Illinois, Indiana.
In April, Utah was the site of Salmonella and Campylobacter outbreaks tied to raw milk. The first cluster included nine reported cases of Campylobacter infection. The second cluster included six reported cases of Salmonella.
In May, Nevada health officials reported that a child became seriously ill with a Campylobacter infection after eating homemade raw milk cheese that was illegally sold door-to-door.
Washington has had two E. coli O157:H7 outbreaks both linked to the same dairy.
Raw Milk Dairy is having a problem and it needs to be fixed.
Oh, and of course I forgot to mention that Julia Child of "The French Chef" fame was a part of the French underground resistance to the Nazi’s during WWII.
Your France hating might as well translate into raw milk hating. There isn’t anywhere in the world that they respect and protect their agricultural & culinary traditions, especially in raw dairy, like the French do.
Did I mention that the French helped the Americans win the 1776 revolution?
It’s pretty obvious that Bob was looking for a response, and I contend, included the Palin quote to guarantee one (hence the ridicule expectation). That he got one should not be a surprise, although I’m positive it was included to solicit the ire of a high profile attorney that he loves to antagonize. In retrospect it was probably a mistake for me to try to add emphasis by including the reference to his nickname…but BubbaBozo, for me, conjures a mental image of some fat redneck, lip bulging from a dip, with a bald wig with red wings, and large floppy shoes. How can you really take anyone seriously with that kind of handle?
Now Bob and I go way back with his ‘coming out’…check the archives and you’ll see the disagreement about the importance he placed on it, is not new. I remember the big deal he made about it when he first made the decision, and also remember the months he spent absent from the list to relieve the initial pressure from the authorities…seems like he did get some good advice from an attorney.
Did you ever get your name removed from that domestic terrorist list, Bob? I don’t remember you relaying the results of your efforts.
It’s pretty obvious that when you’re are sitting in a foxhole and taking fire, it’s pretty dangerous standing up and yelling look at me while you fire back at the enemy. It’s more prudent and wise, and increases your chances of surviving the battle, if you maintain a low profile, and peer out enough to get the enemy in your cross-hairs. Now I’m not totally anonymous….there are a number of those heavily involved with the raw milk movement that know who I am…but if I’m destined to take a bullet it would be foolish to offer an easier target. (and lets be honest here…every raw milk farmer in this country is a target).
Now it’s apparent that Bob’s desire for attention is pretty strong (come read my blog). He’s sees himself as a leader in this movement (although the failure to rally the troops in his home state was ‘their’ fault) And now we are all lost’ because intelligent men decide to keep a low profile and produce the product that makes a difference. Bull-dinky. I’m not sure what Max or Mark has ‘won’ for me…I built my herd one cow at a time..everything I milk has been born on my farm….and the community that has been constructed, with my milk at the hub, was the result of my hard work and effort (and that of my wife). And while the efforts they are making in regards to raw milk are significant, the efforts that the nameless farmers are making are just as important. It’s pretty obvious to me that while Bob is correct about the rights issue, he doesn’t have what it takes to be a leader of men…his criticism of my anonymity is quite revealing….and his attitude towards the true foot soldiers of this movement, sucks.
Jeremey…just because something is unverifiable doesn’t mean that it’s not true…don’t you believe in God?…..and making your decision about the content of a post before one reads the signature is smarter…opinions generated without personal bias are more solid. Just because you sign your real name doesn’t mean that you aren’t full of shit. Some day, hopefully, you’ll find there is more to gain from trust, than there is to lose from doubt.
I do want to thank Bob though…for the Pagan reference. Although it took some effort (all a search initially found was a penchant of videos on conservative websites which showed Coburn asking the question..and cut off Kagan’s answer) I did eventually find Kagan’s response…seems that the Senator from OK wasn’t really trying to talk about food, but trying to illicit a response that would be extrapolated to the new health care legislation. I find it hard to believe that raw milk will be on the SC docket anytime soon…but fear is all some know to spread.
Hopey changey is what the raw milk movement is counting on. Hope that the attitude toward the consumption of the raw stuff will change drives every raw milk farmer in this country. The benefits of raw milk cut across all facets of the population…it doesn’t matter if you are a hippy, mennonite, or neocon, the change in health that raw milk can foster is certain. Welcome to the Big Tent, and have a tall, cold glass.
WIRMC- Bob still calls them Freedom Fries lol
Per "milk farmer’s" comment, I think there is a hybrid of "anonymous," especially on a blog like this. For example, when I decided to post something here, I registered under my real name/email, but for privacy and other reasons, do not choose to create a "blog trail" that will last forever by putting my real name under the posts. In a topic as contentious as this one, anyone could become a potential target, even if just posting some scientific comments.
This is an interesting article about people who use anonymous handles in the context of online newspaper articles. It’s not directly comparable to blogging, but has some novel insights into the phenomenon, especially later in the article where they interview individuals (article is long).
Inside the mind of the anonymous online poster
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/magazine/articles/2010/06/20/inside_the_mind_of_the_anonymous_online_poster/
MW
"All will be moot if individual rights and freedoms are continually eroded and we see further deterioration of our health and well being.
What are the goals?"
What I see happening is people are getting sick,which isn’t all that uncommon,but then the health department "links" the illness to raw milk consumption.Then the farmer is facing a law suit because someone has allegedly been injured by his negligence.David would like us to confess to negligence and clean up our farm.I think it is the health departments responsibility to explain in detail to all of us how they determined that the milk was the cause of the illness.I think you are confused about the nature of bacteria and way overconfident in the technology involved in their investigation.I don’t see where the rights issue fits in.The farmer has been accused of a crime,we need to understand what the evidence is before we decide he is guilty.I am not convinced that finding a strain or serotype or isolate or whatever on the farm in anyway "links" that farm to an illness.They did not find any "matching " whatever in the food from the farm.
Evidence needs to be evaluated and its derivation clearly understood-essential transparency is based on policy-often–often court ordered. In my science days-whether I was convinced of something or not did not matter–what mattered was my being able to satisfy rigorous peer review of my data-which sometimes was brutal (more experiments–more controls-more review of the raw data). In my law days-all that mattered was whether the argument before the court was a winner or not. And no matter what we think or how self-righteous we may feel—it is the person caught in the crosshairs standing in front of the bench who takes the hit-not those shielded by the internet.
Regarding negligence-do not be confused by what David is asking–he is NOT asking for admission of guilt. He is asking that we be pragmatic and assume responsibility. To put this in perspective. I have visited other raw milk dairies–some are so clean you could eat off the parlor floor–others it takes a week to get all the flies out of my truck and the stench of the parlor out of my clothes. To deal with "outbreaks" and policy issues we need to be preemptive in our practices, focus on the rights issues and not be distracted by secondary and marginal issues. We need standards. We need to be intelligent about the real circumstances on our farms and we need to help each other achieve standards of sanitation, animal husbandry and excellence assuring confidence in the quality and safety of our products.
One rule (taken from the "Art of War") to prevail in court you must understand your opponents case far better than your opponent. The same applies to the food rights issues.
I am finished engaging in these side-line bacterial, strain, isolate, evolution issues–discussion can resume when we have the luxury to do so—there are more important immediate matters to deal with and I hope the energies of this blog get back on point. And Miguel I hope you can use your internet research skills to get on track with the rights issuesbecause all will be moot unless they are addressed and resolved.
Gotta go–I’m on the hay wagon again today tossing and stacking—hopefully—- as Steve Bemis says–"Making that stack brick tight" . Not bad for a Senior Citizen….of course the old guy (83–drives the tractor).. ;>)
I never said that unverifiable claims are not true; what I did say is that their truth is unknown. But why let facts and logic get in the way, eh?