Where have the merry go rounds gone?It’s been quite a few years since I’ve gotten sick from bad food. I have vague memories of the times it’s happened, the memories being primarily around the after-taste of the bad food for the three or four days I was sick–some bad tomatoes one time, some bad shrimp another time. I usually had some idea where the tainted food came from, the restaurant or the party at which I’d eaten the bad stuff.
One time it happened to me, along with several other parents, after visiting day at my children’s overnight camp. Some bad chicken served at lunch. I felt worst for the camp’s owners, since that was a hell of a way to have visiting day turn out. And because none of the children had gotten sick over several years, I could realistically assume it was a one-time problem. It never occurred to me in any of these situations to try to “do” something about the problem, like take legal action.
Those memories of bad food years ago came back to me as I read Dave Augenstein’s candid account of getting sick from raw milk, to the point he was still feeling ill while teaching at a local food conference about the benefits of raw milk. He figured out what the problem was–that he’d bought milk from a dairy that didn’t take good enough care in its milk production.
But rather than take what has become one of the knee-jerk reactions to food illness–push legal action to force a financial settlement, or advocate tough legal controls–he decided to provide guidance to raw milk drinkers about how to locate a safe supply of raw milk. He also decided to try to do a better job of evaluating his own choice of raw dairy next time around.
We’re in such a bad political and cultural place, though, that Augenstein’s approach is likely to be viewed through the prism of raw milk politics. For the anti-raw-milk crowd, it’s an admission by a raw milkie that he got sick. And from some in the pro-raw-milk crowd, it can’t be–he’s too quick to blame the raw milk.
Why can’t we just look at Augenstein’s situation as simply a guy who got sick from food? Try to learn from it, and move on.
Unfortunately, as a number of people who commented on my previous post suggest, the entire food illness/food safety situation has gone crazy. Lawyers spewing out endless reports of food-borne illness–almost celebrating those illnesses even as they profess outrage or upset– with the main intent being to pull new clients in before their competitors. This is partly a function of the Internet’s power to throw instant information out, but it’s also a function of the general fear-mongering that’s taken over our society.
Unlike Mark McAfee, WI Raw Milk Consumer, and others, I don’t see Bill Marler, Fred Pritzker and others as the villains. They are merely the inevitable results of a system focused obsessively on pathogens as the be all and end all of food problems, and the source of big pay days from our legal system.
It’s a system in which the individual has no responsibility. I mean, if you eat ground beef from Wal-Mart, you have to understand that you are more than likely eating the meat of sick animals which have spent their lives standing around in their manure, tainted with E.coli 0157:H7. Same thing with chicken–more than three-fourths are estimated to be contaminated with campylobacter. Okay, maybe a lot of people don’t understand these realities, but that’s only because our educational system and media have failed, and need to get busy telling people the truth.
But our system is based on views like these from Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vilsack: “Until we get the number of food-borne illnesses down to zero, and the number of hospitalizations down to zero, and the number of deaths down to zero, we still have work to do.”
This is a joke, much like the new president of Colombia who was inaugurated this weekend stating that one of his goals is to eradicate poverty.
We don’t even know what the true extent of the food safety problem is. The government keeps saying 76 million people get sick from food-borne illness each year, yet fewer than .5% are hospitalized or die. That means more than 75.5 million are getting sick, but having similar experiences to what Dave Augenstein or I have had. Sick for a while, then okay, and resolved to not repeat our mistakes.
That all assumes you believe the government statistics, which I don’t. The estimate about illnesses is not just an estimate, but a wild estimate, done in 1999.
Whatever the real situation, to accomplish Vilsack’s goal will require complete sanitation of the food supply, many more raids of the type we’ve seen on Rawesome Foods to make sure people are abiding by the sanitation edicts, the complete banning of much seafood and deli meats, more rules against people visiting farms, and on and on.
The upshot, of course, would likely be ever more elimination of bacteria that help support life, and build immunity, with resulting increases in asthma, allergies, and other immune-system problems.
Why can’t we face up to the fact that the days of flagrant tainting of food described by Sinclair Lewis 100 years ago are long gone. People get sick, not only from food, but from any number of viruses and bacteria. Usually, they get better. When they get sick from food, they learn lessons about where to shop and eat out, and try to make better judgments in the future. If poor sanitation or other problems are suspected, we have thousands of public health people to become involved. And in the unusual cases of serious illness resulting from negligence, the lawyers get involved.
I regularly meet people who know nothing about the controversy over raw milk. When I explain the governmental aggressiveness, most are aghast. One man this past weekend told me it reminded him of playgrounds. He has grandchildren, and has noticed that today’s playgrounds are missing the seesaws and merry-go-rounds that were common when we were all younger. Now, the seesaws I can possibly appreciate, since those were pretty terrifying. But the merry-go-rounds? It’s all part of an obsessiveness to create an environment where kids don’t ever skin their knees and adults don’t ever get food poisoning. The price is too high.
Bottom line, despite all evvorts…be they in food safety, OSHA rules, or anything else in life, it IS life, and life is dangerous. When you get right down to it, life itself is a sexually transmitted, always fatal, disease. No nanny state can change that.
Bob Hayles
I’ve had serious food-poisoning once, and maybe a few 12-hour upsets too. I resolved not to return to that restaurant, or not eat that food again. (Your line about that lingering after-taste hit a nerve.)
But it never occurred to me to ban these foods, or hold anyone accountable. I just avoided that restaurant – and spread the word to friends and family. That restaurant is out of business now.
Just for the record, I can’t drink commercial milk because it too makes me physically sick. I like dairy products, so I found a choice I can enjoy.
I think the paranoia about most food is well-founded, however. I hear babies are born with an average of 230 toxic chemicals in their cord blood. There isn’t one body of water, nor glacier, nor mother’s breast milk, in the USA that doesn’t have jet fuel in it.
We just had a new grandson last week. He was premature; and is having trouble nursing. I encouraged my daughter-in-law to be patient, and avoid formula at all costs. I told her about goat milk, and she was definitely interested; said when she has to return to work maybe she’ll give it a try.
I used to love teeter-totters, and merry-go-rounds. "Teeter-totter, bread and water, wash your face in dirty water." Remember that? That was the prelude to shoving off fast, to see how much abuse your sister’s tailbone could take. Our threshold of pain is much lower nowadays.
Back then, we grew up on grassfed meats and farm eggs, homemade bread, and whole milk. Apparently, our tailbones could take it.
-Blair
"Fido’s food could be making kids sick, report says"
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20100809/D9HFTBR80.html
Can I sue WAPF for giving me the advice that re-sensitized me to all this junk?
We’re sue happy in this country. People refuse to be adults and take responsibility for their own actions. If an someone gets sick after knowingly consuming (or being fed by a legal guardian) a potentially harmful product such as raw milk, you should not be able to sue over it.
The government’s only real response to this problem is to be a proponent of irradiation. This will spawn a whole new, expensive and potentially destructive industry. It also ups the ante on the "war" against microbes, some of which will adapt to low levels of radiation, just as they adapted to sanitizers and antibiotics. The bottom line is the food supply really won’t be any safer.
The president could fix all of this if he did one thing.
Call Sebelius into his office and threaten her. Threaten her that if she did not listen to the NIH Human Biogenome scientists….the president would have his secret service guards smear the data all over her face ( like a dog that pooped on the new carpet ) and anyone that stood in his way at the FDA. Threaten to fire anyone at the FDA that refused to embrace the biology of truth. Truth found already at the $150 million dollar NIH Human Biome project. Truth we all paid for. The fact that biodiversity is what makes for a healthy immune system and the fact that the NIH knows this and it is information being ignorred and oppresses by the FDA. The fact that the more sterile our food becomes the sicker we become….the fact that we must embrace change and the FDA can no longer function as the corrupt fiduciary of corporate America.
This is when health care will change…this is when our economic strenght will get back its legs.
The President or Michele Obama could do this….but it would take some real balls and ovaries…
….oh…to dream!!
Until then….it is all about teaching and feeding the grass roots, the moms and the truth.
Mark
"They want to scare the public that raw milk is bad," he [Norman Sauder] said of state inspectors.
It’s a bit unusual that a farmer in Pennsylvania has his own testing regime and has the data to dispute the PDA’s findings for contamination. Perhaps the word is getting around and more farmers are insisting on split samples for their own protection?
http://www.bctv.org/special_reports/health/article_67bbfeb8-a3e1-11df-a4fd-001cc4c03286.html
The logical underpinning of litigation is that there is a duty. If we set up the duty as perfection – guess what, no-one is perfect. So, the more perfection demanded, the more opportunities to complain about it not having been achieved. There is no logical end to this spiral. Americans love playing the game, though.
We are meeting our waterloo. Absolute perfection – 100% sanitary food – is sterile. It will not support life. Or more accurately, life will not support it. The system will collapse of its own too-narrow, too-sanitary, too-weak-to-cope purity. As Pogo said, we have met the enemy, and it is us.
So perfectly said…. "we have met the enemy and it is us"….
When we are 90-95% bacteria biologically and we try to sterilize ourselves and pastuerize everything that we consume…..we have truly become our own worst enemy.
The SAD is Suicidal. I guess the upside is that Weston A Price people are really neat humans and we will soon have the planet to ourselves. The sad thing is that for many years and a few more generations we will be surrounded by an ever increasing number of retards, sick humans and disease.
So many have taken office and run our existance….it is not going to be fun being regulated by retards.
Mark
rem acu tetigisti! Perfection is an unobtainable goal. Even if it could be obtained, it would represent complete sterility of foodstuffs and would be a very unhealthy paradigm.
If you are still buying your milk from the "company store" the above link reveals what you are supporting. And it is all approved by the modern day educated gods of food science is it not? Is there a breaking point that will be bridged where this destruction will not be reversable?
We hear that pets are good for kids because they excercise the childs immune systems with all their extra bacteria and hair dander etc….
Now we hear the media and political medical establishment and FDA saying stay away from pets and do not wash your baby in the sink anymore.
We all know that pets do best when they have some raw meats and other unprocessed foods with plenty of probiotics etc. It is not enough that industry is sterilizing our human foods….now our dogs and cats are being targeted.
Mark
The most important quality in a farm is biodiversity.An abundance and diversity of organisms from microbes to large animals is a sign of health on the farm.Wildlife and wildlife habitat are very important to the health of the farm.They are also important in the education of the farmer.We need to observe unmanaged,wild systems in order to learn how to manage the farm to work in harmony with the natural world.Part of our daily routine must be some time spent in the areas on the farm that are also home to the wildlife.We need to take an interest in how the wild plants and animals form a symbiotic system,then we need to fit our activities into that system as much as possible.Activities that at first glance may seem foolish and inefficient ,make a lot of sense when they take you out away from the farm buildings and get you out amongst the wildlife on the farm.
Biodiversity is not neat and orderly the way a conventional monoculture cornfield is.A weed free cornfield is a soil bacterium’s nightmare.Diversity in plant life establishes the terrain for a diverse population of microbes.Diversity of plant life in the cow pastures provides the cow with lots of different fatty acids which it puts into the milk.By diversity I mean that the cow should have access to trees, shrubs and wild herbs as well as numerous varieties of grasses and legumes.If we accept that diversity is a sign of health,then we need to recognize that while there needs to be orderliness and cleanliness in the milking parlor,This philosophy does not extend to the pastures and fence rows.A truely healthy environment cannot be achieved through management that turns it into a neat and orderly picture of a farm that you would see in a modern farm magazine.
http://www.geopark.org.uk/blog/_archives/2009/7/12/4253154.html
Biodiversity is life on earth and it is the functioning immune system in every ecosphere.
Pastures, human skin, human gut, ears, throats, mouths, birth canals, dairy parlors, hospitals, rain forests, deserts, water, lakes, creameries… you name it….it has is own ecosystem. Our own best science tells us this ( NIH Human Biome project ).
The much discussed and much awaited uniform standards for raw milk and its Food Safety Program is all about the health of ecosystems. There is a reason why there are few standards and food safety systems out there that are on this subject. This is because…the government teaches Kill Step HACCP and that is not how the world works.Bacteria learn to survive and overcome Kill Steps and become very pissed off in the process. Each of us have our own challenges and risks in our own ecosystems and uniformity is not so easy when natural systems and biodiversity are far from uniform except for their lack thereof. Unhealthy ecosystems are begging for unhealthy predatory opportunistic bad bugs. Your parlor may be orderly at macroscopic inspection….but make sure that friends are all arround you in the microscopic world in your parlor. Do not use Quats…hot water and basic soaps do very well. Lets not make more bad bugs and lets keep our friendlies friendly.
Miguel, keep the good science coming…. I like to think of our RAMP food safety program as a program designed to protect natural ecosystems and therefore the food inside of that system. So far it works gloriously….
So far the FDA will not acknowledge that it is possible to make safe raw milk from these kinds of living pasture based NON-CAFO conditions. The impending death of the quickly bankrupting CAFO FOOD INC, system in America is fortelling of truth in nature.
There appears to even be an ecosystem for economics….the CAFO dairy system is dying. 109 dairies out of 1850 ( 1/17 ) were lost in CA last year alone. Dead foods are a dead end to markets in decline.
Mark
"All animals to be used for milk production are vet tested for tuberculosis and Brucellosis, also know as bangs disease, and antibiotics. The milk is frequently tested for bacteria that can be harmful."
If I understand a tenth of what I read about bacteria,then a very small fraction of bacteria can be isolated and grown in the laboratory.The rest of it cannot because it does not survive without the support of the rest of it’s community.We cannot understand the role in health or disease that this other 99% of bacteria play because we cannot isolate and study it.What we do know is that the role that each individual bacterium plays in it’s community depends entirely on the other members of that community.Bacteria can switch roles just as people change professions.They can acquire new genes the way that we acquire tools when we change occupations.When competition for one food source becomes too intense they can acquire the genes to get energy from a different source that is more abundant.
When the vet does a TB test ,he injects something into the cow."what is in the injection" I asked him."Killed TB bacteria " was his answer.I wonder,what is in that injection that we don’t know is there?I wonder about all of the vaccinations that are given to cows.Do I really want whatever might be in that vaccination in my milk?What will it do to the cow’s health?To mine?
Does testing milk for individual bacteria really tell us anything about the safety of the milk?
I like the metagenome approach where the genome of the whole community of bacteria is investigated,but really this is only the potential that is represented.What we need to be able to see is which genes are actively producing
molecules like the shiga toxin.Do we know for sure that none of the 99% of bacteria that we haven’t studied can produce shiga toxin or are able to pass that gene on to other bacteria? The whole concept of classification of bacteria by genus and species is being reconsidered in light of the information revealed by whole genome sequencing done in the last decade or so.We shouldn’t base our safety standards on testing that may soon become meaningless.
That sounds like a very unrealistic goal. No wonder the system has to pretend like they are working to help the public by going after some easy targets, like small-scale independent producers. Even if they perfect their choke hold on all producers, if consumers aren’t aware of common sense about food safety and health, they will still get sick by mishanding the food, or make poor judgement on food choices.
Also, whenever I read about bacterial risk of raw milk, I’m reminded of the court document from the case involving Mcafee’s farm, in there was testimony by an Australian scientist who made a contrast between "live" and "dead" food. He used an example of an uncooked apple left on a kitchen counter for days that would not spoil and be edible, as opposed to a cooked apple that would go bad in a few days and would potentially make us sick. He also commented on how we have forgotten to use sense of smell to detect food spoilage.
All these comments made me realize that people of today have lost a common sense about food safety and health (I want to call it "food sense"), the wisdom that our forfathers must have had to survive and thrive without the protection of government and agencies.
As long as officials are driven by such unrealistic goals as quoted above, we consumers and farmers need to do our due dilligence to continue to educate ourselves in regards to the facts about human illnesses, health and proper food production and handling. That’s what I think I can do to help myself and my family. I don’t know how I can help the officials and the system to be once again in touch with reality. They just sounds so far fetched to me on this issue…
In light of Miguel’s biodiversity post, and the importance of diverse pastures and ‘wild’ areas on the farm, I wonder if you could relay how you maintain diverse pastures. If your farm has been historically in agricultural production, what did you need to do to change the typical mono cultural aspect of the traditional ag land? What species are you adding to your fields to encourage diversity? Do you have any ‘wild’ areas that your cows can graze? In pictures I have seen it doesn’t look like there are many trees on your farm, so how do you go about creating a biodiverse system for your animals? I understand you might need to check with your herd manager and get back to us, but it is odd that that the response to everything seems to be HACCP and RAMP.
I would also caution you about trashing ‘mega’ farms for their size. There are some out here that view your ‘ultra-commercial’ raw milk endeavor as a ‘mega farm’. Trash them for their methods or ‘husbandry’, they deserve that, but with hundreds of cows, you really have no place in castigating the size of conventional operations. Many feel that raw milk is better served by smaller more intimate farms.
PS I tooled around your website for the particulars about your RAMP program, but was unable to find any reference to it at all…can you post a link so we might get more information about it? Thnaks
Vilsacks’ attitude, and the penchant for politicians to pander to the ignorant masses, make conventional legislative methods of legalizing raw milk even harder. But this shouldn’t stop production, and the education of the minority who see(k) the truth. When mankind has a 100% safe food supply, extinction will be imminent.
I thought that I had posted our RAMP Food Safety Plan at our website….I guess I thought I had…but did not. Anyway…I have asked our webmaster to post it right away near our lab results.
As far as biodiversity is concerned…we planted 25 trees in 2008 and they are growing fast. We manage about 10.5 miles of hedge rows along side each of our pasture paddocks. These hedge rows are biodiverse habitats that provide refuge to dove, quail, coyotes, gophers, cow egrets and god know what else.
We also have a dedicted area that is about a half acre at the western and southern end of OPDC that is a pond refuge that allows for water borne wildlife. OPDC is located in a sun drenched irrigated desert area. Our biodiversity will be different than what is found just 40 miles in any direction No,So, East, or West of us.
Our pastures contain burmuda, fescue, rye, sudan, alfalfa, clover and milk weeds and other species of things that come and go…all being fed by sun, water, pee and manure fresh from the cows.
On top of this….we use our "mobile milk barn" to allow the cows to be first priority and not walk 1.5 miles to get to the fresh pastures and back the barn for milking…we mooooove to them.
It is hardly a CAFO RAW MILK Dairy….the proof is in our pathogen tests and flavor.
As we say at OPDC….keep clean clean, green green, cold cold and hot hot…trust in mother nature…but verify with modern testing technology and most importantly remember who we serve and feed….it is people and not a pasteurizer.
We never guarantee perfection or perfect safety….we guarantee only that raw milk is fantastic tool to build your immune system and that if a bad bug does come your way from what ever source ( like the Taco Bell in the last few weeks, or that scary dog food with Salmonella ) you will be much better off and able to do battle….you may not even get sick at all because your biodiversity and strong immune system will kick some bacterial bootie…
Mark
I was thinking about farm cleanliness this week. Some of the nicest farmers I know have junk strewn around their yards. It isn’t because they are lazy; but rather because they work so hard, that they’re often too tired to walk to the trash can, and it’s full anyway, and after a long day’s work of lifting hay bales or shoveling manure, they probably don’t feel like taking out the garbage, so it’s full. After days and weeks, and years of hard work, it gets to looking trashy. People from the city wouldn’t know the first thing about what is a "clean" farm, just from observation. That junky farm might have cleaner milk than the cleanest looking farm in the county.
Miguel, I don’t know about injecting cows with dead TB, but I think I get injected with it yearly in my state-required TB mantoux test as a health care worker. I’ve never had a positive test. One year, a bunch of people had local allergic reactions to the serum, and I was one of them. I haven’t had a reaction since though. I have no idea what the long term health consequences are of yearly TB tests, but it is one small hoop of many that helps me pay my kids’ way through college. Flu shots, VRE, MRSA, carcinogenic cleaning wipes, trace amounts of all kinds of drugs against my skin or inhaled, you name it. Two children down, and two to go.
This morning I had McDonalds on my way to work at 6am. This evening, I had lamb curry that my mother-in-law made – our lamb, probably 3/4 GM rice from the store; and home canned tomatoes, I think. I brought home a big cucumber the case manager had brought in from her garden to give away, and gave it to my MIL for fixing me supper. I gave my 18 y/o $40 last night to spend at the Farmer’s market today. She brought home 2 quarts of blackberries with the intention of making a cobbler, among other things. I was glad for McDonalds this morning, I realized. But I do wish they’d buy their pork and chicken from people who raise them a little more humanely. The local farmer isn’t going to make me a bacon, egg and cheese biscuit and hash browns before my 12 hour shift conveniently on my way to work at 6am. I could make it myself if I got up at 3:30 instead of 4, I suppose, but I’d really rather just go through the drive thru. Most of the time I have a bowl of cereal with raw milk.
Yesterday, my daughter and I watched Food, Inc.. I realized that I have read books by most of the people on that movie documentary, and have even been in forums with a couple of them. I felt some small sense of hope at the idea that companies like Stoneybrook Farms were signing on contracts with Walmart. Places do change.
Hedgerows can be an effective way to enhance pastures…it is hard to grow grass in shade….and deserts.
Different plants concentrate minerals in different ways so the more diversity you have the easier it is to transfer the molecules into your cow. We’ve experimented with a new plant this year….molokhia…and the cows seem to like it, and it’s supposedly very good at mineral absorption. There is no better feeling than walking the fields and seeing how a paddock changes from season to season and year to year. (especially when you have a hand in that change).
Watched the Perseid meteor shower last night. We’ll be setting our alarm for even earlier this morning, and taking the reclining lounge chair out in the pasture again. Should be even better show tonight (and tomorrow). Something about shooting stars is so ‘grounding’.
Gwen….indeed, farming isn’t for OC clean freaks. Those that mindlessly follow lists like that can and will lose…but incorporating lists like this into creating your own standard for making a decision is much better. Meeting the farmer, and getting that ‘right feeling’ is still the best way (no matter how dirty the front yard is).
Cut the bullshit.
Your *wink,wink* *mobile* *wink* milk barn is in the public record. Congrats on moving it after three years.
Your mass grave of cows is in the public record. Congrats on jeopardizing the ground water.
Come to Jesus.
Amanda
Thanks for the reminder of the meteor shower. I will definitely check it out tonight. We’re luck way up here to have no light pollution
Amanda
Such anger….are you friend or foe?
The "mobile milk barn" is moved under a strict protocol that was negotiated with CDFA and the Fresno County Health Department. It is moved all the time….not sure where your information is coming from. We moved 60 times in the last three years ( this is documented…some moves were a short distance of 100 feet to stay away from mud or decrease pressure on pastures and others more than 2500 feet )… now you are spreading toxic lies. I can provide the Movement protocol and agreement with CDFA and the Fresno Co Health Department upon request.
As far as a "mass grave of dead cows"…..that is also called an "organic compost pile". I am proud to have one. We hold an organic processors permit which allows the composting of animals and we use this nutrient dense compost on our organic crops. This is called "sustainable" and we join Joel Salatin and other organic farmers by composting of manure, wet straw and dead animals as part of our USDA ( NOP ) organic plan.
Amanda…why are you so ugly about raw milk from OPDC? We are doing everything we can to nourish people with safe delicious raw milk. So far, I do not see other farmers joining in to help us in CA. God knows we have tried to get others involved…no takers.
May I suggest that you take a different angle or do you now work for the FDA or Marler???
If OPDC surrendered and stopped tommorrow…who would provide grass fed organic raw milk to CA….????
Think about that….is that your agenda?
Cool your jets….now you are attacking the moms that need this food and that gets personal with me. Keep your information accurate. That is the one thing that this blog has almost always had was some integrity from its participants.
That means you. I want peace….if you want war, then you must understand what that really means. Moms will rip you open.
Mark
Anyone can go to fresnohealthinspections.org, search for "Organic Pastures," and find references to the mobile barn. I see a report from 9/09 demanding that you move it. The thing has been hitched to the same concrete slab for over two years, even if you do have plumbing all around your pasture for it. Gumpert saw it in person.
I think Gumpert has the cow burial report. He can post it. Anyone who knows a jot and a tittle about composting knows that you don’t throw a whole cow in a "compost pile."
Amanda
Dear moms who Mark McAfee is sending to get me,
Do ask for the county reports before you try to rip me open.
Amanda,
fellow raw milk mom
http://www.rawmilkwhitepapers.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/OPDC-dead-cow-pictures.pdf
My compost piles and bins look a lot different
The report:
http://www.rawmilkwhitepapers.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/OPDC-dead-cows.pdf
I just noticed that the report discusses the lack of mobility of the barn. It’s dated in Nov of 2008 and says it has been stationary since June of 08. We know from the health inspections report that they were still trying to get OPDC to move the "mobile" unit in Sep of 09. I suppose that’s where I got the impression that OPDC didn’t move the mobile barn in two years.
In any case, there is a good bit of detail here on pasture management for anyone who knows anything about farming.
Amanda
Actually, you do!
Amanda, you might want to research the California regulations for composting. It is perfectly acceptable to throw "a whole cow" in a compost pile in my state. In fact, we just threw "a whole horse" in ours.
Does your compost pile look like that in the report? I do actually compost and my compost sure looks a lot different than the shallow cow graves buried under hard pan. Are you defending that practice?
The practice is not legal in California. That’s pretty clear in the report that I linked
Amanda
I am not going to worry about any of this anymore.
I reserve my unkindness for public professionals like Marler and Sheehan.
As for you Amanda…I will refrain.
I just do not understand the source of the huge fermenting compost pile of negativity. If you spent your time investigating "all the good raw milk does for people"…you would be much happier.
Mark
Please remember that OPDC was required to move their composting site aproximately a half mile from where it had been for seven years without complaint and in compliance with NOP and USDA organic standards. We hold a CA DHS permit for this practice regardless of the notice of violation issued by the Air Resources Board Police. These people do not talk with each other…the left hand has no idea what the right has done or will do or a has a permit to do.
The compost pile was moved because a large trench was being constructed to allow the installation of a baried steel natural gas line along the side of our property right directly underneith the site of our composting site. When the site was moved some of the recently incorporated animals were accidentally exposed. This was literally a two day event….as luck would have it…inspectors had a hayday over it…no fines were levied and all was explained when we sat down and showed the CA DHS permits and our NOP USDA organic inspectors reports for the previous 7 years.
We live in an inspectors dream word….they love anything they can write up….that means OPDC.
Being organic, being green, being raw and earth friendly are all things that most inspectors are unfamiliar with…they want sterile monoculture fields and nothing alive along the edges….they want round up sprayed along the sides of everything. They know of no good bacteria in the entire world. They want all cows to be butchered at the local USDA plant….when they reach 42 months…just like the CAFO they inspected down the road…they do not understand that a cow can die of old age naturally. They do not understand a closed fertility loop.
They do not understand on farm slaughter…they do not understand our consumers…or grass fed beef…they do not want to change and they have no reason to change.
Amanda thank you so very much for supporting and encouraging the enemy of good food.
In War time this is called "treason".
Please feel free to earth google map OPDC… the truth is the truth. We are planting 200 acres of new permanent pastures this fall…..you can see the many locations that we use for our mobile milk barn. The address for earth google is "7221 So. Jameson Fresno CA".
I hope you feel so much better now. I am not sure how I can be more transparent.
Mark
Animals DO die. Nothing lives forever. Even the best-cared-for animals die eventually. What would you have Mark do with his dead animals… send them off BEFORE they die to be ground up for grocery store hamburger… like the CAFOs do???
Actually, livestock animals ARE composted whole. Done correctly, even a large cow decomposes with little odor and more quickly than you’d think, leaving only the bigger bones and teeth as evidence. I have composted several old goats that way myself. In fact, there IS no other acceptable way to dispose of dead animals here; leaving them out to rot in a back pasture creates a horrible odor and draws predators. What would you have us do with mortalities… take them to a funeral home for cremation???
"Composting has been demonstrated to be an economical and environmentally sound method of mortality disposal." : http://www.oardc.ohio-state.edu/fabe/composting.htm
"Numerous published reports and methods for large and small scale composting techniques for a variety of other livestock are available on-line. It should be understood that animal composting may require some trial and error to achieve acceptable results." http://www.ecy.wa.gov/biblio/0507034.html
"Natural Rendering: Composting Livestock Mortality and Butchering Waste": http://compost.css.cornell.edu/naturalrenderingFS.pdf
Not sure what your agenda is with this expose’, Amanda…looks like you’re just out to get Mark any way you can.
MW
He has sold butter that is not his butter. He has sold cream that is not his cream. He has sold cheese that is not his cheese. He tells people that pathogens have never been found on his farm. Iintegrity in the raw milk movement?…hmmm
Know your farmer!
cp
I just talked to a friend who is an expert in large animal compost. He says that you *can* compost large animals effectively (so I stand corrected) but he looked at the pictures and said that a shallow grave is totally inappropriate.
I assume he sells them as grass fed beef to his buyer’s club. The ones that die before slaughter used to get buried in the shallow graves. Apparently now they get taken to a refinery since the burial is illegal here.
No, nature definitly doesn’t have a nice and perfectly blended ratio of C and N!
And by the way, would it matter if the cow just composted where she dropped??? For the most part she’d probably get ate up by coyotes, but if she didn’t, soo WHAT!!!
It’s very much a part of NATURE!!! It truely does take care of things!
I live on the edge of a huge provincial forest and I’ve seen all kinds of wild animals decomposing where they died – this is NORMAL!!!
If you want to go to extra effort to extra effort to turn every animal into compost to spead evenly on your feilds – great! but it shouldn’t be a problem if your don’t either.
We had a cow die that for some reason didn’t get touched by coyotes, just maggots – they spread that cow out for a 30 foot diameter and it grew the most incredible grass, actually it still does!
I’ve never understood the goverments obbsesion for burying and burning and what ever else nature would never do!! CAFO’s I’m sure need a set of rules, but Mark’s place??? He’s got the land base to do any thing he wanted and still be quite with in natures model (especially when there’s no drugs in the animals!)
We drink Raw Milk as a part of a Holostic perspective of health – Part of the "whole" picture is that things that die, feed things that live, and the cycle continues – don’t try to make it too complicated!
The issue really isn’t a big animal dying in nature. It’s a fairly large dairy burying dead cows in a shallow grave. It’s illegal in California because it affects the very shallow water table in that part of the state. Mark is down-playing it, but the fact is, it is illegal and there is a fairly good reason for the law. 300 cows isn’t really that small of a dairy for national standards. Here in California there are ways to dispose of them that does not impact the water table.
Mark in no way has the land to let cows rot above ground. It’s not that big of a piece of land for that many cows. He does not live on the edge of a provincial forest. Much of the acreage is tied up in trees.
If this is a mole hill and not important, why does Mark find it necessary to talk about his pasture and his mobile barn as if it *is* important? If it’s not important, don’t mention it and, for goodness sake, don’t lie about it.
If the mobile barn isn’t mobile, don’t say that it is. Arguing that it’s mobile makes people think mobility is important. I don’t have a strong opinion on the importance of mobility but I do know that the barn hasn’t been mobile. It’s mobile now because they constructed a second dock for it. I don’t doubt that there is plumbing out there in sixty spots to hook the milker up, but I also know that in reality only two of those are used (and for some time only one was).
If it’s not important, cut the bullshit and move on.
I did not make the mobile barn important, Mark did with the marketing he does with it.
I did not make his pasture practices important, he did right here. He described a nice little pond on the south west corner of his property that is apparently housing egrets or some such. That’s where the dead cows are "composting." Do you think a little sustainable pond would form around a shallow cow grave? I don’t think so which is why my bullshit meter went up. I live inside a forest and I see large dead animals rotting and don’t see little bluebirds chirping in their decaying bodies.
Add the outsourcing bullshit, the mobile barn bullshit, and the shallow grave bullshit and I see nothing but bullshit.
You all may see the future of sustainable agriculture. So be it.
Amanda
OP is a company that provides an alternative, no matter how evil they may seem on some accounts. They are one of the few alternative prototypes. I know a LOT of farmers. Get them to start talking dead cow stories sometime, and see how many creative ways you hear about dragging and disposing of dead cows. Listen real close to what they say about "the authorities." I am not looking at the link for the picture, because frankly, I think composting whole dead cows, as opposed to some of what I have witnessed and heard, is pretty cool, no matter how ugly it looks. It beats a grizzly eating half of what’s left of a cow, and taking down more because it developed a taste for them.
Amanda, how many people does your farm feed per year? What do you do with your dead animals? How do you propose we feed 300 million people per year; what is your plan for this, and how long will it take to reach completion?
I don’t care if Mark outsources. I don’t care if he composts cows. I don’t care if he stretches the truth. I care that Monsanto owns 90% of the soybean market and employs 75 people to protect their patent rights. I care that the people writing, passing and enforcing agricultural laws in this country used to work for agribusiness. I care that such big wigs go after little guys who barely feed a drop in the bucket, limiting our ability to feed ourselves and our communities. I care that I have to live in fear if I buy products from my neighbor, but can buy all the CAFO garbage from the grocery store that I want. If I lived in California, I’d buy OP milk, knowing all I do about that company, because it is one of the few companies that is attempting to change the status quo. I am going to support that. I’ve never met Mark. I’ve never met Dave. I’ve never met you, that I know of.
I’ve seen a few feed lots. My husband’s niece checks brands at a huge sale yard in Wyoming. Let me tell you about dead cattle and ground water. Keep on reading; there is a whole lot more out there, and you’ll need to go beyond OP to find the really significant stuff.
This discussion exemplifies why education is so critical. There are millions of people who have no idea how nature works. Bridging that gap is essential.
Years ago, we used to pile the dead animals out by the road until the rendering truck came by to get them. Can you imagine the horror of driving by and seeing *gasp* dead animals? Think how the children could be traumatized! Rendering the by-products of dead animals is another business that has been essentially destroyed by the ignorant powers in government.
We are quickly losing all of our small butchering facilities because ignorant government officials, spurred on by the Amanda Rose’s of the world, think you need to have a multi-million dollar facility to butcher a chicken.
When you have a lot of animals, you have to deal with a lot of dead animals. It is a fact that the squeamish don’t like to look at but it must be done and it isn’t pretty.
Our water table is 4 ft down right now and I still can't see how that wouldn't be a good filter for decomposing mater as that is exactly what nature does – I don't think it makes a difference if the animal happened to be a "large dairy cow" verses a moose – if there is enough land to graze cows on sustainable, there is enough land for for the usual amount of dead cows, period.
If I am understanding Gwen, I see that unless a consumer is producing as much food as a farmer, the consumer cannot ask that the farmer be honest in his communication. New t-shirts: "He's not as bad as Monsanto."
Karen: You've not done proper background on me. Here's a start:
http://www.rebuild-from-depression.com/blog/2007/08/if_you_kill_it_you_eat_it_part.html
Amanda
I guess I'm just old school and think someone's word should mean something. Sorry about that.
We move becuase we want our cows to be close to green pastures and not walk for 1.5 miles to go back and forth to clean and green. The long walks to clean and green pastures and the paths that go back and forth are one of the limiting factors for milk cows and access to pastures verses the milk barn.
If a cow must walk several miles twice per day…this is hard work for the cow and also destroys all the pastures between the milking barn and the clean and green pastures she needs to graze upon.
With our Mobile Milk Barn the cows are not filthy dirty from being in a manure pen all day long and they can access clean, new green pastures close by and let the older consumed pastures regrow and rest. For OPDC this is a fundamental for good clean milk and solid nutrition while allowing all of the pastures and ground to be in constant rotation.
It provides the "non-CAFO , true pasture based environment" needed for raw milk production. Our Mobile Milk Barn changes the need for CAFO into open verdant pastures.
Before making any judgements as to the validity of opinions expressed on this blog we invite your first hand visit. The truth is evident and we do not stretch the truth or lie….like so many people do. The truth is in the facts…we produce pathogen free clean raw milk and we have happy healthy consumers.
Mark
I asked for your SOLUTION, not more finger pointing. How are we going to feed 300 million people and what are YOU doing about it, other than chipping away at possible solutions? My guess is nothing. I can do research on Mark. I can point fingers. Do you even have a farm???
This "holding farmers accountable," seems to only apply to the people trying to do something; not the worst of the worst. Not as bad as Monsanto is an understatement, dear. Make your t-shirt if you like. You've lost a second look at your comments from me, until you have some proposal, and have put your money on it. I personally have put my own future, as in the rest of my life, behind my own commitment. I have no patience for people who stand around pointing fingers.
If 2.5% of his herd (600?)died in a year of natural causes(15 cows – which would probably be very high) 300 or 600 acres would be plenty of room to let animals decompose – I really wouldn't worry about that – make a compost system or strategically place them in area you want to see improved.
I just quickly glanced at your blog, and it looks interesting – I'm going to go read it more thouroughly later tonight but right now I have to go butcher a few hundred pastured chickens (which by the way, the waste is getting fed to the pigs – sounds disgusting?? yes, but they love this treat a few times a year – waste from one species feeds another – this is the way nature works. Pigs or maggots – something will eat it some where along the line.
2 cows per acre for a year is a pretty intense ratio, and requires some incredible soil to maintain.
Exactly my sentiments…. I don't care what Mark does or says; I don't care whether he moves his milking barn twice a year, once a year or even once every two years… whatever is still more often than other dairies move theirs. At least Mark is trying to change the status quo, trying to improve dairying operations, whether he succeeds fully or not. Perfection is not achievable, no matter how long or hard we work at it… what is important that at least attempts are made.
Amanda, are you even TRYING to provide organic food to people? If you are not even attempting it, why do you feel so compelled to drag down those who do? I really don't understand how your motives can be as pure as you claim.
"I care that Monsanto owns 90% of the soybean market and employs 75 people to protect their patent rights. I care that the people writing, passing and enforcing agricultural laws in this country used to work for agribusiness (MONSANTO!!). I care that such big wigs go after little guys… I care that I have to live in fear if I buy products from my neighbor, but can buy all the CAFO garbage from the grocery store that I want."
This also frightens me far more than if Mark never moved his milking barns AND let every one of his dead cows rot uncomposted on the face of the earth. If the doings of Monsanto and the like to control the world's food supply don't frighten you too, Amanda, then apparently you are perfectly happy to live off Walmart foods forever, because that is their goal. Good luck to ya.
It sounds like a lot of people commenting have not actually read the report. A lot of these issues are discussed there (e.g. the specifics of the burial site size, the non-mobility of the mobile barn).
Amanda
On the cow compost issue, I found out that the specific reason it's illegal in California dates back to the Mad Cow concern. Apparently the bug isn't degraded in composting.