A few days ago, I received a troubling email from someone active on behalf of food rights, and someone I highly respect.
I see you working hard and contributing to the food freedom and quality battlefront and it lifts me up. My desire to be a supporter and promoter of your blog site is obliterated however by what you choose to allow with regard to the guidelines of posting to your comment column. Maybe you feel that it’s a simple playground where the little children can rip each other to shreds with no adult guidance, I don’t know. What I do know is that I don’t understand why you endorse or tolerate this nasty evilness polluting your otherwise beautiful site.
And again, I don’t know much about blogs, I do however enjoy participating and moderating discussion groups. To keep those discussion groups going I have a strong opinion that they be safe for all and that cruel cyber bullies be banished immediately. I have no desire to even listen to childish name-calling, or road rage style insulting. If the writer is savagely attacking ideas, concepts or proposals, that is totally fine, the clear line is when the attack is personal.
Simple childlike attacks on the character of the other members will, in my opinion, only muddy the water, and divide the loyal and hard-working. The enemies of food freedom and farming, if they know about you, must secretly enjoy your self-immolation pyre.
Likewise, I would never allow cyber-bullies to post without having the courage to cite their own true name and occupation! In my one brief foray onto your site (when I was mentioned by you in your blog) my personal character was somewhat viciously attacked by one of your commenters, someone legally registered under their cyber-avatar nickname! I felt it would have been somewhat insane for me to even make comments to either clarify or defend myself from some sheet-wearing coward burning a cross in my yard. I cannot for the life of me figure out how a man of your wisdom and vision could see any redeemable value in allowing this egregious abuse.
In a world filled with pettiness, sideways inappropriate rage, chickenshit attacks and cowardly sabotage why would anyone want to voluntarily expose themselves to your gladiator arena for mutual abuse. It is for these reasons that your site sickens me and why I will no longer recommend it to others. Reading your blog and the comments strikes me as similar to eating something wonderful and then biting into the last half of a meal that is rotten, filled with manure and maggots. That’s the taste left in the mouth.
I answered this individual in part by stating:
“You certainly aren’t the first person to complain about the tenor of the comments. It’s an issue I’ve grappled with over the years. I’ve been tempted to step in according to some of the ways you suggest, but have always shied away. Basically, I’m a big believer in free speech. I have edited out offensive personal attacks that become libelous, but beyond that, I’ve concluded that if I try to eliminate distasteful or immature comments, I can’t realistically determine where to draw the line, and my judgment inevitably becomes arbitrary.”
I also explained why some people need to stay anonymous on the blog—to protect themselves from the food police or, if they are the food police, to protect themselves from colleagues.
I concluded by explaining the role I see the blog playing in the larger debate that is emerging over food rights: “I have come to conclude that by allowing such an open type of discussion, my blog provides an important contrast with the regulator and government web sites, as well as the establishment media. In those places, there’s little or no real back-and-forth of the type that occurs on my blog. I am sure you know well the kind of coverage our food rights issues get in the mainstream media–heavily slanted toward the government view. Only recently are we beginning to get some realistic coverage, like this piece that just appeared in Atlantic Monthly, which relied heavily on my blog:”
http://www.theatlantic.com:80/life/archive/2011/08/the-latest-raw-milk-raid-an-attack-on-food-freedom/243635/
I’ll conclude by saying I appreciate the complaint about this blog’s sometimes troubling tenor. It’s a good excuse to seek out your input as to what we’re doing right, and what could be improved. It’s also a good excuse to preview the fact that we’re going to have a new look here in the next few months, a look that hopefully makes the blog easier to read and access.
Food rights is only going to become a more contentious issue, and I’d like this to be a place that is examining it in the most relevant ways.
(By the way, I’m away for a few days, out of email touch, so will respond further when I return late in the week.)
I have decided after some reflection that I am not going to be commenting here any more. The relentless attacks are just not worth it anymore, and its clear that few appreciate my insights into dairy microbiology and food safety issues.
I am the first to admit that I stand on the shoulders of giants. I have had numerous mentors who have many decades of experience working in the dairy industry. Wisconsin has the deepest and longest cheese making traditions of any state in the US, and more small organic dairy farms than any other state.
I have recieved much wisdom and knowledge from many different people. But I have not met a single artisan cheese maker or organic dairy farmer who shares the narrow-minded viewset I so often battle here. Most of the folks I know in the dairy industry do drink raw milk, while acknowleding that it needs to be reasonably regulated for food safety if it is to be sold to consumers who do not work in the dairy industry.
I hope that the dialogue will change for the better, towards a more enlightened discussion of food safety in raw milk production. But I do not intend to be part of it anymore. Raw milk cheese remains perfectly legal in all 50 states, provided that basic food safety standards are met, and that is not going to change anytime in the near future. My work with RAWMI will hopefully improve understanding of food safety in fluid milk production, and expand the market of consumers and producers who are interested in high-quality sustainable dairy production.
Thanks everyone, and have a great life. I wish you all the best.
Wow, isn't this the pot calling the kettle black? It seems most everyone who has posted here has at one time or another been verbally attacked in some way. It is your choice how you react to it.
David, I appreciate that your blog is NOT censored. As I has said the other day, the name calling and mud slinging was sounding like politicians. You could always stipulate that there is to be no name calling-facts only when negative words are used about an entity….
Being civil is a nice concept.
I am trying to learn both sides of the raw milk issue. Do I think regulation is needed? For an entity as large as Marks, yes, for the little cow share or dairy less than 10-20 cows (I am just tossing numbers) no, I don't think they need to be regulated.
I believe that everyone agrees that sanitation, environmental health, cow health, feeds, etc are all important and the ultimate goal of all is healthy wholesome raw dairy.
I do believe that both sides can work together, yet be separate with their entities.
The goal is the same, working together to ensure that each practices are not enroached upon seems to be the hard part.
My point is that for every written flame you receive there are likely dozens or even hundreds of other silent observers reading and learning from the work you guys are doing here.
Sites like this one need a greater number of rational, thoughtful voices to thrive, not fewer. Please remember that the loudest and most obnoxious are also (not coincidentally) the smallest minority in this community. The rest of us are out there… you just usually can't see us. 🙂
I appreciate much of what David writes – do not agree with all of it – but appreciate his thoughtfulness (most of the time).
Bill…you see what happens when the guard dog leaves his post? The fox appears forthwith!
Alyssa
Oh whatever . . .
This person has a serious adversion to debate . . .
I have seen this on Facebook when an ephemeral liberal friend has posted something political and then I may have the audacity to question that liberal viewpoint . . . . but guess what . . . lo and behold . . . gosh and um . . . . I have been DEFRIENDED!!!!! . . . . wow, clap, thank you very much . . . hope you feel better . . . I am no longer a friend and cannot challenge you in a debate . . .
For all of the "A" posters big words and um hope you feel better that David let us know how you feel . . . but um. . . .
There is such as thing as the US Constitution and um . . . the first ammendment is what, um . . . I think David has in mind on his blog.
Best wishes to all . . .
Violet
http://www.kilbyridgefarmmaine.blogspot.com
I will be describing in detail tomorrow, what happened today at a huge meeting between CA cow share operators, consumers, legislators, top level CDFA regulators, representatives of several state senators and the deputy Sec of Ag and Karen Ross, the Secretary of Ag for California. I attended representing raw milk consumers and Stacy Pearson represented RAWMI in her capacity as VP and secretary.
After one hour of very diplomatic comprehensive discussions about raw milk, consumer rights, constitutional issues, CDFA regs, lack of CDFA regs or even a definition for cow shares, the madam secretary suggested a " raw milk cow share working group". She set a four month time line and designated her staff to coordinate the groups efforts.
It was powerful to see CDFA very engaged in an investigational high interest discussion. It was clear that the Ag Sec saw an emerging market niche, that lacks a clear description.
More to come. If you are near Grass Valley tomorrow night, after the Farmagedon showing, Mike Hulme and I will be speaking to the crowd that is estimated to be more than 500. I will tell the whole story of how CDFA has met us half way to work on he issue of cow shares in CA. Top level legal advisors that have looked at the cow share issue have clearly shared with us today, that the entire issue must be analyzed. It could very well be that if a cow share is really a consumer owned co producer contract…..that CDFA would completely leave them alone. Especially given that RMAC and RAWMI are available to assist.
Until this is figured out, the working group has a greed to peace. Karen Ross opened the meeting by saying that her department was just trying to do their jobs and these public servants have recently been threatened and abused by the raw milk crowd.
All at the meeting agreed to stop the abusive conduct and strive for a constructive effort to figure this thing out.
I am proud of CA…..I actually saw CDFA acknowledging the growth and seriousness of the emerging raw milk market and the shortage of local raw milk….even with Claravale and OPDC operating.
This is progress. This is a battle born partnership.
We must reach out and educate our regulators. They were a bit shocked to hear that more than 100 share programs are operating in CA. 1 in 17 dairy operations in CA is a share program. Wow. CDFA was impressed…..
They were threatened? Doing their jobs? Police state tactics have been used against the farmers, is that their jobs?
Will they also be prohibiting beef shares? I don't trust the regulators or any govt entity. They have proved they lack honesty, integrity, morals, justice…..the list goes on and on.
Karen Ross, prior to CDFA, she was chief of staff for U.S. Ag Tom Vilsack. Trust her? Not at all.
Ideas are ideas…opinions are views….and everyone has them. Voicing them is a different story, because one must have confidence in themselves, and their logic, to express them. Some express them in different ways…some use the English language like a napier, and some like a broadsword (and some like a phlebotomists pin)…. either way, when one weighs in, they open themselves, and their logic, to both support and criticism. Making the decision to not contribute is sad…because quite often it is based out of fear and lack of confidence…the same tact the opponents of raw milk, and now some PROponents of raw milk use to advantage.
The only thing worse than not having the guts to engage in conversation is reading 'half' the conversation…ie skipping down to see who wrote it, before you decide to read it. Getting half a view, and being afraid (there's that word again) to read an alternative, is worthless…(it's a snake, it's an elephant, it's a donkey….).
I appreciate much Davids efforts at maintaining a open forum for discussion…because that is the ONLY forum that true discussion can be had. Sure he could've cracked down, in one way or another, to quelch views that he didn't agree with…but he understands the futility of trying that on the web…those voices would just go elsewhere to opine. Having everyone here makes for more activity, and better interaction (at least for those which more than marginal constitution) and a better chance that the discussion can lead to something more than who can fart the loudest on a screen. This blog….and the comments section…has become MUST reading for those in the raw milk movement….it's not just a bunch of 'hot air.
Bill, While I'll be sorry to see you go, I know full well that you aren't leaving. My guess is that you''ll just take your microact to another forum…one possibly on the Institutes website. Self-righteous attention whores don't do well in basements.
Bill2, we haven't missed you
Mark, it is good that 'progress' has been made with the CA cowshare situation….another 'working group'….seems like we've heard that before. Could it be that those public servants are going to just 'capitulate' because of threats and abuse….??….not likely. We've seen this tact before and it is just a ruse for the authorities to regain a mantle of reasonableness, co-opt the discussion, and bring the opponent more out in the open. My guess is they'll want licenses and registration for all cow/goat shares in the state…testing too. My guess is that you wouldn't have a problem with this. Victory…..Huh? We'll watch and see.
"we do not need or want you to keep us "safe," because your version of "safe" is influenced by special interests, a political agenda, and a money trail. "
I don't need nor want protection from the govt regarding what I consume. They have shown they make poor choices.
Bill A. I've learned a lot about the process of cheese making from you and others, sorry to see you go.
Now those efforts have culminated in a place at the table.
If you want to change how Americans eat, then come sit at the table, learn some manners, listen, learn, contribute and be the change. If not you are welcome to eat in the wild but do not expect to be an effective voice for change.
The aberrant voices of negativity will become a distraction to real pioneering and creating a great America. Those that fight in the streets during the revolutions need to learn how to put down their arms and sit and talk after the rage dies down. If not all they are is group of barbarians.
I expect good things from this working group
These great things will only happen with engagement and investment.
CA tends to lead the world. The rest will follow.
If you want peace and be able to restfully sleep at night … Come sit at the table leave your battle weary weapons at home. They will still be there when you get back home.
America is greatest when we work together. I did not see big Ag at the table yesterday. It was our day. Please invest. Please build something for our kids.
We've been operating under the herdshare model in Ohio for about five or six years now, and while the Ohio Department of Agriculture has been leaving farms and herdshares alone after Judge Hein's decision they really don't have a good understanding of them. (In the minutes from the April 2010 Milk Sanitation Board meeting former Dairy Chief Lewis Jones and Assistant Attorney General Patterson tied themselves up into verbal knots trying to explain raw milk and herdshares. http://www.agri.ohio.gov/divs/dairy/docs/MSB_Minutes_4-2010.pdf)
I'd just like to mention that we should be careful to use the correct terminology when discussing herdshares and cowshares, because allowing incorrect terms to become commonly used may help dilute their legal standing. When a farm offers cowshares that means that it is offering shares in a single animal and the shareholders are receiving milk from that one specific cow. When a farm offer herdshares that means that it is offering shares in the entire herd, the herd's milk is collected in a bulk tank and the shareholders are receiving commingled milk from all the animals. State Departments of Agriculture can get very picky about "cow" shareholders taking milk distributions from a bulk tank.
There are generally two documents that must be signed to buy into a cow or herdshare – a Bill of Sale to purchase your interest in the dairy cow/herd and a Boarding Contract that allows for the farmer to manage, care for, board and milk your portion of the animals. Each farmer sets the initial buy-in price to become investors in his or her herd, and once you have made your initial investment you then become a cow/herd shareholder. The farmer is also known as the herd manager, and his contract specifies the boarding fee that must be paid by each shareholder, per share. The contract also specifies that each shareholder can receive a distribution of the cow/herd's milk supply in proportion to the number of owned shares, and it's up to each individual farmer to determine how often the distribution occurs and the amount that is distributed per share. It is also the shareholder's responsibility to take his or her distribution, and if the shareholder chooses not to accept a distribution that has no bearing at all on the boarding fee. Basically the cows need to be milked, moved around the pastures and looked after, and the owner/investors in the cow/herd are responsible for compensating the farmer for boarding the animals regardless of whether or not they receive any milk.
Even though it is tempting, we also should not refer to cow or herdshare "programs" – our herdshares are legal contracts between private individuals. It behooves us to keep emphasizing that we are investors, owners and shareholders and definitely not ad hoc consumers or retailers.
I, too, think the government has absolutely no role to play in a contract such as this.
Sylvia pointed out a link between food regulators and the Joint Commission, as they now call themselves. At one time they had good advice for best practices. Now, however, they enforce increasingly ludicrous, expensive, and draconian practices, and sow fear and panic wherever they go. Like many agencies do, they eventually stop working for the people they originally were incorporated to help, and begin working to further themselves and their agenda instead.
Oh I get it, only a select few are allowed to voice their concerns, questions, observations. Manners Mark? You've been known to be rude and name calling on this blog also.
"The aberrant voices of negativity will become a distraction to real pioneering and creating a great America."
See above. You alienate people.
"Those that fight in the streets during the revolutions need to learn how to put down their arms and sit and talk after the rage dies down. If not all they are is group of barbarians."
Again see above.
"I expect good things from this working group"
Until they prove different than past behavior, a change in judgement is reserved. Many ARE engaging and investing their time and money. Many are fighting for their livelihood. Are you willing to work together? Your post doesn't sound like it. Your way or no way.
http://www.agri.ohio.gov/divs/dairy/docs/MSB_Minutes_4-2011.pdf
"Raw Milk Sales in Ohio
Mr. Tedrick shared the fact that the last administration recognized herd share as they told us to not take action against them. Weve done that and are not real comfortable with this position. We have worked very closely in the last month with Mr. Hopper; basically what we trying to do is to come up with some options for this new Administration. We are planning on having a few options for the Director to pursue if he sees fit.
Mr. Hopper: states, this will actually require legislation, its not something we could do in-house it
would have to become a State of Ohio issue. We are looking for options on this matter of concern for Dairy Division.
Mr. Tedrick pointed out that even though sales of raw milk resides in herd shares, we are concerned with the processing of butter, cottage cheese, yogurt, etc. If you want to get into processing milk in this fashion, you should do it under the same guidelines that any other processors are required too. Now the fluid Raw Milk jug being sold, alright well swallow our pride, we want quality counts at certain levels, also looking at animal health, TB, Brucellosis these are public health issues we want and that need to be addressed.
Mr. Gieser asked that if we could come up with rules and regulations, what kind of additional tests are you going to be performing to ensure that there is no bacteria in there? For example, Pennsylvania, they can become licensed to sell raw milk. However, those farms are being tested for pathogens. Are we going to do the same things? Then what happens when we have this farm that shows pathogens and he cant market his milk to a single processor anywhere in the state?
Mr. Mengel made mention that his cousin has a raw milk license in Pennsylvania. Mr. Wise told the board that we have a pretty extensive list of human pathogens that would be included on that test. And if they show positive results for any of those human pathogen on any tests, there would be an immediate stop, embargo, what ever we could do to latch a hold of what ever is there to destroy.
Mr. Ellis said there is a case going on in Pennsylvania right now where a guy went into the Grade B market and a grade cheese market does not even want his milk. Once you have that sigma that youve got problem, no one wants to do business with you."
It continues to concern me that the ODA officials are still linking "sales" with herdshares and still don't seem to understand the difference.
As for RAWMI, I have no desire to become a mini-OPDC. I only care to produce as much milk as I have the resources to raise and milk myself. I don't use a pipeline, a bulk tank, teat dip, or industrial dairy chemicals. I rinse my equipment in hot water just prior to milking, and I occasionally bleach it. I have been in operation for over 10 years without an illness.
Bill has significant knowledge of how to work with industrial starter-cultures and their respective microbiology, but he has a rather divisive personality. When Mark gets someone like Goatmaid or Violet on his Board, maybe I can start to listen, because I feel those people are capable of listening to me.
I applaud you, David, for letting people vent or let off steam about volatile subjects like nutrition and health – because those subjects will always be volatile as long as people have choices. When the gov't takes away our right to decide what we can do for ourselves, we will have no right to our opinions either, and what a shameful day that will be.
Thanks again.
However, it is true that I am chickenshit about posting my real name and occupation… oh well.
My wife and I were looking into selling raw milk. We went to the Brunner's farm in 2007 and met Pete Kennedy, Sally Fallon and her husband Geoffrey Morrell, and the many other farmers like us trying to find out all the "ins and outs" of raw milk.
We were trying do this the legal, safe, and healthy way along with more than a half dozen other dairy producers here in Wisconsin.
We were told the way to do this was to have a farmshare. We spend 4 months reading and writing legal documents with help from FTCLDF, and had to consult with a CPA. We finally got ourselves established and started selling raw milk.
Then after a year or so came the letter from DATCP. We decided to seek a second legal opinion and were told that it was ALREADY legal for Grade A farms to sell raw milk (which we were) under the incidental sales clause. However, under the incidental sales clause, we were told, we were not allowed to advertise. This is why all of the farmshares got into trouble, from the advertising, especially on the WAPF's website.
We got screwed by the WAPF/FTCLDF raw milk "movement" and now we're being scolded for our discontent by an anonymous "activist"?
Maybe the division in the raw milk movement comes from this idea that only WAPF/FTCLDF/RAWMI – sanctioned activities are the legitimate movement. Milkfarmer, Goatmaid, et al are DOING IT. THEY are the movement. Once the "movement" canonized itself, it lost itself. Farmer-consumer relationships are being traded for labels and rules and fees. A legitimate grassroots movement is becoming yet another cumbersome bureaucracy. Not allowing our voices to be heard, Mr./Ms. "Anonymous Activist", does not make us go away. Anytime we expressed our discontent, we were told to shut up and go away. David is the only forum I know of that lets us express ourselves. Banning us will not change our experiences and thoughts, but only make us more suspicious and hateful of your WAPF/FTCLDF/RAWMI -santioned "movement".
We have been lied to before, will we be lied to again???
RAWMI is the next chapter in this book, let's see how this plays out.
Samantha . . . I really am hoping that you are just joking . . . do you really want this blog to be the David, Mark, Bill show?
I used to really respect Mark . . . until he settled with Marler . . . then I started to question . . . someone was about to get Mark's milk pool records in Sacramento . . . did you ever get those milk pool records . . . and what was the outcome?
I really appreciate what David wrote yesterday . . . his blog is as transparent as they come . . . I am so glad that whomever that poster was . . . has never posted again. . . . Debate is good and sometimes it does get heated . . . if you can't handle it . . . that is just too bad.
Thanks again, Kirsten . . . This was the nicest compliment I have received in a while:)
Kind regards,
Violet
http://www.kilbyridgefarmmaine.blogspot.com
Although the RAWMI website is still being edited and under construction, the RAWMI FB page has come alive.
I invite all that would like to be involved with the Secretary of Ag Raw Milk Cow Share Working Group to please contact RAWMI and join the discussion. Your voice is invited and needed. Whether you have 1 cow or 300 and you are involved in CA raw milk. Get involved. Please.
I don't know what RAWMI standards will be, but I'm glad they are stepping up, and hopeful that they will embrace and encourage small and medium size farms. Especially small and local These are the ones that delight me!
All these distrustful posts about RAWMI have reason, but it is not for Mark's glory that RAWMI needs to happen – it is for consumers. They are just too trusting that "somebody" will watch out for them. Even WAPFers – who have been taught to question and read between the lines, are eager to trust a "certified" dairy. Some just don't want to go onsite and do their homework.
It's hard to protect people from themselves, we need a disclaimer.
Some are still fond of convenience, and want to trust a "good line" such as all natural, etc.. I learned this the hard way. Some farmers think that they can be under the RMAC umbrella and proceed as if we were just a marketing tool. We're a long way away from all dairies being truly self-regulated. We are all human.
Hat's off to those that do take responsibility – and there are lots.. I don't need a regulator, I just need education so I can find out who does it right. . If RAWMI can muster the funds to do that, they have my endorsement. If they're just focusing on certification, they don't get it.
I have a hunch that isn't the case. Mark is too smart to screw the small guys, and he really does believe in raw milk for everyone.
At least, I hope so. I'm willing to listen with open mind and heart, and I wish RAWMI the best..
-Blair
Advertising means: "the action of calling something to the attention of the public especially by paid announcements." (from M.Webster) Are those sites being paid by the producers?
Violet, I don't know the details of Mark's settlement, I do know that it can be common to settle cases as it can be much cheaper in the long run than a drawn out court case. I don't agree with that, but do understand it. It is a money issue between the lawyers, insurance companies, etc.
Blair, you are absolutely right.
Looking to Websters for definitions (ref to advertising) when dealing with regulations can be a dead end and misleadingthe definitions that are used and enforced are those in the statutes, laws and regulations themselves-the only time our common sense definitions from Websters are used is when there are no definitions in the statutes/laws or we try to make an argument based on equity. In todays political and legal climatearguments based on equity are arguments of last resort-and usually loosersat least thats my take. That is why it is so important to deal with the legislative matters very early onand to really be immersed in the issues to not miss details (Grade A-advertise) and anticipate opposition arguments.
But with that said, we must understand and acknowledge that the loss of local food sources, including the loss of our experience with and exposure to real food production, is a very, very terrible problem that is NOT corrected by the invention of new and improved versions of centralized production. Centralized food production makes us economically fragile, physically unhealthy, stupid, and irresponsible. We must acknowledge that the best system is really no system at all, but rather natural, human-scale, locally based, diverse, and relational (i.e. not reliant upon third-parties), and that centralized production, however tweaked and twaddled, is always far less than the best we can do.
It is critically important that we never stand in the way of local, private, or home-based food, but third-party entities do just that. They inevitably grow in influence and power, goaded along by the ubiquitous system-think that pervades most every corner of America, riding media tides that never reach the little guy, and then, strangest and scariest of all, mixing in with government. The result at best is more chilling of our already near-frozen local production, and the ginning up of more ignorance of the negative side-effects of centralized power.
I am not comforted by assurances that this or that program is voluntary, or scalable, or deemed by experts to be appropriate for everybody. Systems are by nature overconfident and relentlessly self-promoting, rarely acknowledging that they are anything but perfect and wonderful. And as Blair suggests, reliance on systems and experts is the easy way outirresistible to a populace trained to pass responsibility for their lives to outsiders. Systems are set up to succeed in homogenizing everything to their specs.
RAWMI and every other centralized system should be forthright in admitting that they are nothing but a necessary evil. Or better yet, they ought to use their influence to lobby to remove regulations, tax burdens, zoning restrictions and all the rest from individuals trying to swim against the tide of bigness by producing real food locally for neighbors and friends and community members. Instead what we get are suggestions that any farmer who doesnt play along is careless, or uncaring, or under-informed–that is no way to treat our most valuable social, health, and economic constructs.
The only way forward I see for raw milk is to rigorously distinguish retail sales from herd shares and to vigorously pursue right of contract on that basis. Don is right in pointing out that the people in Ohio, at least, have their terminology in a muddle. I suspect it's the same elsewhere as well.
I was very disheartened to hear Mr. (and Ms.) Google's story. Even when you plan and do things right it seems you are set up to fail by the regulators and certifiers.
Amanda
aka "Foxy"
What he has described is a rural-producers regulatory utopia. I am serious when I say that it is truely beautiful and based in humanity. I do not think this exists in the world today. Are there any examples of it??? Not sure there is one. Not even the Amish live in this type of world. The American Indians…Eskimos, Off gridders…
I can not think of any one that lives in this type of utopia. Not at this time on this earth.
Perhaps in a totalitarian family environment with deep commitment from all parties this could happen. The Polygamists in southern Utah??? Families generally deteriorate in businesses after three generations at best. Polygamy is not utopian anyway. I can not think of any examples of utopia regardless of the location on earth or in society. The International Space Station????
Utopia is not America. When utopia is the goal and nothing else will do…..that is like throwing up your hands and refusing to add your heart behind incrimental changes to make things better in the real world.
How about this….you work hard to create Utopia and I will visit you and give you all the support I can…and then you support me in the real world where we feed real people and where they are truly thankful for good food and good sound immune systems for their children.
We can both be satified that we have both done something good. What a boring world it would be if everyone thought the same.
Last night at Grass Valley, the Farmagedon showing produced 350-375 attendees. Mike Hulme was there to address the crowd and so was Stacy from RAWMI.
More than 120 people signed up the interest cards for RAWMI membership. A hat was passed to support Mike as he struggles with CDFA. The hat was bulging from cash from the generosity of all that felt his pain. He was visibly moved by the support.
A mom came up to me and embraced me and thanked me for raw milk and the health of her family and children. A consumer told me that he had cured his GERD with OPDC raw milk.
So….Dave Milano….in your perfect world…none of these great things would have taken place. In your utopia, if you are not connected to a local underground raw milk farmer and live next door….you deserve to have sick families and die off. Not my idea of anything good. Perhaps I have taken some liberties with my example, but in a utopia…..a whole lot of people do not into the tent.
We need all systems and we need both systems.
Lets serve all of humanity. Lets do it the best we can and very safely.
Mark
Sylvia . . .I know all about why cases settle . . . but Mark had a great case to take this to trial . . .the e-coli strain that was implicated was never, ever found on his farm! Then a few years later he comes up with this multi-million dollar RAWMI institute . . .and he contradicts nearly everything he says . . . Fight them, work with them . . .he is a great speaker . . . but I do not think he should be the face of the "Raw Milk Movement". People like "Milk Farmer" and "Goatmaid" should.
Raw milk should be produced "LOCALLY" just like it was 60 years ago . . . This is not a "Big Farm" movement . . . . but a "Small Local Producers" movement. Herdshares, Artisan dairies . . . those that milk under 20 cows, 10 goats or 30 sheep . . . but can get direct retail prices $5.00 and up per gallon on mainly pasture/hay are what should be encouraged.
I see very little support from small farmers like this towards RAWMI . . . and I see little or no representation of these farmers in Mark's group.
Maybe I am wrong . . . .prove this to me . . . .
Kind regards,
Violet
http://www.kilbyridgefarmmaine.blogspot.com
Mark . . . take note of that!
Kind regards,
Violet
Amanda
Correct me if I am wrong . . . but you sincerely wished to see Mark's milk pool records and stated that you were on your way to Sacramento to view them when Mark said that he would open them to you.
Sorry that you were unable to see them . . . I was hoping that you did . . . and what you found out as I have been following your posts over the last few years. . . that is all.
I live in Maine . . . and don't drink Mark's milk . . . my raw milk is sourced through a very small licensed dairy that milks Jerseys once per day . . . calves are still with mom . . . cows are on pasture and our family is so healthy . . .
Kind regards,
Violet
I was in the Sacramento area and could have gone to the Milk Pool office had I been allowed. Instead, Mark sent me his copies.
Amanda
I hate flippancy so here goes . . . the first week in August Mark States:
"Ok Amanda. Let's trade emails next week. I will open up CDFA milk pool records to you. I want this funeral to end and show you the truth in it's raw form. I have nothing to hide. Nothing."
You respond:
"Excellent, Mark. I'll be in Sac this week. Call the Milk Pool office Monday morning to grant me access. This is great. (but, really, don't open your kilt…)"
Then nothing . . .for two weeks . . .
And when I question what you found . . . the dismissisive remarks above . . . .
Kind regards,
Violet
http://www.kilbyridgefarmmaine.blogspot.com
After all these years . . . no pooling/outsourcing of milk. . . .
Kind regards,
Violet
http://www.kilbyridgefarmmaine.blogspot.com
It's not really clear what the confusion is. Mark contacted CDFA brass and they told him they wouldn't give me access. That was "the exchange of emails." I didn't go to the CDFA Milk Pool office because I didn't get access to the Milk Pool records in Sacramento. We learned that the records in Sac are exactly what Mark reports and there is apparently no oversight. I was under the mistaken impression that the Milk Pool records would have more teeth. Apparently, what needs to happen to examine outsourcing patterns is a forensics analysis of OPDC records and the proprietary records of the milk brokers since that is who he bought from in the past. I can't get access to those other records. This appears to be the end of the road in regards to Milk Pool records.
I certainly don't intend to spend my time reading Mark's self-reports and reporting here to you guys so we can have a repeat of April 2008. Perhaps if someone else wants them, they can ask Mark for them.
Amanda
I certainly can't answer your question and neither can the self-reported Milk Pool records.
If the CDFA simply relies on the big boys to use the honor system, so much for protecting the populace from food borne illness. This is Farce-Majeure when it comes to liability. We are led to believe the CDFA is fulfilling its oversight responsibility when nothing of the sort seems to be happening at all.
Feel safe now?
I thought that I could authorize anyone to have access to official Milk Pool records in SAC at CDFA. I made an error and I was wrong. CDFA has some kind of policy against this. I did not know this at all. That is the absolute truth. No Bullshit.
I gave Amanda and David eleectronic copies of the last 4 years of OPDC Milk Pool reports. These reports have been audited by Milk Pool CPA's that the CDFA Milk Pool sends to OPDC to deeply and comprehensively audit every six months or so. They compare every drop of milk produced (from our tank records )with every drop of milk sold ( from our sales records )….they even require documentation of returned milk from stores and line loss in the creamery. It is beyond insane. Talk about freedom losses….I could write this book. The CA Milk Pool is one of the greatest reasons that additional raw milk dairies do not emerge to serve this market. On top of this audit pain…I pay the Milk Pool $25,000 per month and can get one drop of milk to bottle from the Milk Pool like every other creamery in CA. It is the ultimate finanicial rape….trust me. I have had to go to counselling over this.
Please stop this conspiracy theory about OPDC lying….
The last thing in the world I need is a felony conspiracy charge from the CDFA milk pool…all reports are signed under oath. Please help me here.
One last thing…..
RAWMI is serving a very important service….it is happening already. Look at this example…it happened this week already.
When Mike Hulme and FTCLDF sued CDFA on Cow Share Issues…..they were banned from the meeting with the CA Secretary of Ag and the CDFA team this last week.
Well….guess what, RAWMI was able to attend and start making a difference for Mike and FTCLDF and all of us.
FTCLDF works and defends farmers and consumers in the judicial arena….super important. RAWMI works to change law in the legislative area, assist with standards and perform research in a different…yet vitally important arena. What a great partnership.
All of these efforts work colaboratively to serve us all.
We are now able to circle the wagons and our circle is complete….no missing parts to our fighting forces, defense forces, diplomacy corps and or peace keeping forces.
This is progress!!
What a week this has been.
Mark
I read TCP nearly every day, catching up when I do not. I carefully read every word of the comments section. David Gumperts points re. anonymity are valid. In the long-ago discussions regarding the introduction of caller i.d. for telephones, the public debate was heavily slanted in favor of mandatory caller i.d. but the case was beautifully made regarding the need for anonymity. The case for anonymity holds as David has explained.
Privately contracted food sourcing has revitalized health and economies. This private activity is vitiating the noxious elements of the mainstream food orbit, a welcome side-effect. I want to see the private activity increase and the noxious elements die-off. If those that have found themselves in or worked themselves into the catbird seat of the mainstream food orbit are disconcerted, so what? They multiply mistakes with no real way out, cranking up the propaganda organs attempting to shove the whole system further down the road. Well its a road into the sunset thank God. Consider this: within the mainstream food orbit, the noxious elements are a constant corrupting pressure on the wholesome elements.
Fashion is a treacherous guide and contented ignorance is folly.
Mr. J. Ingvar Odegaard
This is a classic….it is funny because it is so true.
We are learning that CDFA and other Gov agencies appear to have been involved in a serious Raw Milk undercover investigation effort for the last 2 years or so….at many CA Cow Share programs. More busts this week. Details have been requested to stay quiet for now.
Sounds like the "CDFA Cow/Goat Share Working Group" that has been designated by Karen Ross, the Secretary of Ag in CA, can not have come too soon. Everyone is going to need some peace very soon. This fight is getting very ugly.
Mark
I don't know what to say, Mark, about signing all of this stuff under oath, but I assume you shouldn't have a problem if what you signed is actually true. If your records aren't correct, that's hardly the fault of consumers like me.
As for the comments about a "conspiracy" of "lying" from OPDC, I guess we could quibble about definitions, but you did misreport your farming practices to Cornucopia in 2006 and again in 2007, 2008, and 2009. I believe you did again in 2010 and 2011 because you claimed to have a closed herd and yet told us here that you added to your herd to avoid outsourcing. For those who are unaware, the dairies have an opportunity to update their scorecard each year to Cornucopia with their latest practices. I don't intend to start another back-and-forth here but readers new to this discussion might want to search the archives of this blog. It's really fairly obvious and all based on Mark's own inconsistent public statements.
Amanda
Anyone want a free book? Great reviews on Poisoned.
I found a Mike Adams 8/25 posting at Natural News:
http://www.naturalnews.com/033428_FDA_secret_war.html.
This must be related.
Amanda: Thank you for mentioning cornucopia.org.
Mr. J. Ingvar Odegaard
Please define a closed herd? I can buy organic cows from other organic dairies as long as they are TB tested and pass all tests. Are you now saying OPDC can not buy the very best organic cows to feed it's hungry customers???
Why don't you just come out and say it…..for some reason you hate my guts. There is nothing I can do to change this. In your life you pathologically need a villain to hate and I have the great and distinguished honor of being that guy. That terrible horrible person. I give you my milk pool reports and the best you can do is continue the hatred.
People like you suck life out of life.
I swore I would stay positive. But you are the limit. I must apologize for this public display of negative language. But when I am 100%,busting my butt with incredible compliance challenges, spending time and money defending Cow Share operators in CA, and feeding tens of thousands of grateful Californians and all you can muster is hatred.It tends to piss me off. Just a little.
Let me just say this, right here, right now….. you suck the very life out of life itself …
Don't worry,you are very much loved and appreciated by many many people,even by some of us who are sometimes critics.There is always something to be gained through moderation.We want your dairy to last.We all find limits by exceeding them for a time and then noticing the signs of burnout and then slowing down a bit or shrinking back to a more comfortable size.Don't feel like all of the responsibility to feed people good food is on your shoulders.If people really want good food and adjust their priorities accordingly they will find a way to get it.It is not up to you alone.And it will be good for those people who learn through necessity to take more responsibility for their food.
As far as a closed herd,I believe the common understanding of closed herd is that no cows are brought onto the farm from other farms.In other words any added cows have been born and raised on that farm.
Grassland Grange has maintained a completely closed herd since 1989. The definition of a closed herd is a herd in which no outside breeding stock (cattle) are introduced. Based on this definition, OPDC is not a closed herd. To replenish your herd, you purchase cows and bring them into your herd.
Also, after all of these years on the topic of outsourcing, everyone knows Amanda is not talking about you selling fluid raw milk. She is talking about butter, cheese and colostrum that you have admitted yourself having outsourced. The question is when did your outsourcing practices really stop? That is what Amanda is trying to figure out. She was hoping the milk pool information would settle this debate once and for all. It did not because it is based on a self-report.
It is not possible to cheat on the milk pool report, unless an organization invested tremendously in two accounting systems and coordinated a criminal conspiracy. OPDC has no desire to be involved in this type of conduct. An audit is an audit and numbers can not be faked or fudged. The milk pool can call stores and ask them how much they sold….if that number does match our reported numbers……you are busted and worse. It is a criminal charge.
Self reporting is a hollow statement. The reports I delivered are true.
The reports show right on the front page the date and location of any organic raw milk purchased. I do not understand why Amanda does not see this clearly. I even pointed it out to her.
All outside purchases have stopped. The reports show this.
As far as Cornicopia ratings are concerned I will look into this. A closed herd is not something I care about. I need and want genetic diversity, we search far and wide for the best cows of many breeds to enhance genetics of our pasture based herd. All cows are tested prior to delivery. Bulls are brought in from other farms to keep the girls pregnant and when they stop breeding they become ground beef. We grow most of our replacement bulls and most of our heifers.
We do search for the best organic cows we can find. If this is not reflected accurately at Cornicopia, I will get Will Fantle to make that assess our practices and if appropriate make a change in the notes or checklist for score.
Yesterday, I emailed the president of one of the CA dairy coops beginning him to solicite additional dairymen to join raw milk.
I agree …..OPDC should be one of many raw milk dairies serving CA. But….no one seems to have the guts, nerve, consumer connection desire or what ever to get on board.
I believe that one of the reasons Claravale does not add more cows is because they are on the brink of the 500 gallon per day limit and would be required to start paying serious money into the milk pool. I am almost certain of this.
Organic dairies in CA are selling cows. They are hurting. OPDC call get the very best cows and we will continue to save these cows to grass pastures. The alternative is a sale to a CAFO or the meet grinder. If that is what a closed herd means….it is not something important to me.
Unfortunately, you come across to me, a consumer, as the self-appointed raw milk messiah. Instead of answering questions about reporting to a third-party organization that is looking out for the interests of the consumer like Cornucopia, you choose instead to personally attack Amanda, who to my knowledge is not in the raw milk business, is not your competitor, and is simply a consumer who wants access to information to verify claims a business is making in regards to their sourcing. And you as a business owner, instead of just defending your business practices by presenting facts to answer the charges, feel it necessary to attack a consumer advocate with personal attacks?
I think you are a poor businessman based on what I have read here, and whatever deal you are currently trying to broker with the state of California, I just want you to know that you do not represent me, the consumer. We consumers are the ones who will ultimately make the decisions as to who provides us raw milk. If you want to earn my trust as a consumer, you need to stop these kinds of personal attacks against consumer advocates when they ask you questions about discrepancies noticed. I checked the Cornucopia website, and your farm is represented there with the following information:
Ownership Structure: Family Farm
Milk Supply: Single Farm
Disclosure of Information for Verification: Full and open disclosure
Cows on pasture time/acreage provided: Intensive rotational grazing
Replacement animals only from organic farms: Closed herd
Farm support oversight: Owner-operator
Outside dairy ingredients purchased: None
We don't need Amanda's statements to alert us to the fact that these answers given to Cornucopia are not true. Your own comments here on this blog seem to prove they are not true. It would certainly appear that you are clearly misrepresenting your operation to the public.
I learned a long time ago that the easiest way to defend a negative attack, if one is innocent of the charges, is to simply present the factual truth refuting the charges. If on the other hand one is guilty of the accusations, anger towards the one who is revealing them and personally attacking them is the usual response.
It is so easy to be critical, walk a mile in my shoes prior to commenting and buying your next raw milk. We stand behind CA cow share programs, we stand behind RAWESOME, we stand behind Claravale.
If you do not want me representing you as a consumer on the Cow Share Working Group with the Sec of Ag…..you are invited to join this group and have a voice personally.
Cows on pasture time/acreage provided
You replied with "Intensive rotational grazing." Can you give us more clarity on that as well? I believe your website states that your cows eat grains also. How much of their diet is based on grains, and how much on green pasture? WAPF seems to make a point of emphasizing that your cows are grass-fed as opposed to Claravale's:
—————
Organic Pastures, Raw milk from pasture-fed cows is now available in health food stores throughout California.
Claravale Dairy: Jersey milk, available raw and pasteurized. According to their website, Claravale feeds their cows a diet of hay, feeds, and pastures, including grain. Reader Comments: A reader notes that she and her grain-sensitive patients cannot tolerate Claravale milk or other milk from cows fed grain.
—————-
This public information leads the consumer to believe that your milk is 100% grass-fed and Claravale's is not as good as yours because they "include grain." Don't you include grain also? Also, if a "reader" made a negative comment about your milk to WAPF, would they include that also on their site?
So while you are clearing up the missrepresentations on Cornucopia website, perhaps you could do the same on the WAPF Real Milk website and let consumers know that you also feed your cows grains?
Read the checklist item again.
I do not think we misled anyone. I will assure that the answers are even more clear.
I do agree that we do purchase some outside feed and suppliments. I will talk to Will Fantle about this change to the score card.
As the "Raw Milk Watch-Dog"….are there anymore areas of concern that I should address?
You're the business owner and you are asking a consumer how you should answer the Cornucopia questions?? How about you just answer truthfully and revise the misstatements? I addressed my concerns about pasture and grain feeding in the comment above, regarding both the Cornucopia website and the WAPF website. Are you going to address these concerns for consumers?
You can find the guide as a PDF here:
http://www.traditional-foods.com/sourcing/raw-milk/
and as an html article here:
http://healthimpactnews.com/2011/raw-milk-consumer-guide-how-to-choose-your-raw-dairy-farmer/
I've already gotten great comments from farmers with suggestions for revisions. I'll try to revise it in the next couple of weeks. If anyone here has suggestions, post them on the first link (the second doesn't allow comments) or email them to me.
Amanda
Amanda I forwarded your links to a cow share friend.
As long as you have 13 unrelated lines in your stock . . . you can have a closed herd in perpetuity . . .I don't understand why Mark does not do AI . . . lots of really good semen out there . . . Mark:)
How long do your heifers last on your milking line . . . Organic Holsteins usually last 3 maybe 4 years before they are burned out and turned into hamburger . . . on two or three times per day milking and with grain inputs and I don't care if you are organic or not this is reality . . . how much pasture do they get in California where rain does not fall 6 months out of the year? Are your pastures irrigated?
If you bring in outside animals . . . and I don't really care if they are organic or not . . . they have the potential to bring diseases into your closed herd . . .
And as the head of a RAWMI institute who can tell others how to produce healthy raw milk . . . your animals are the key . . . you are not a closed herd and if you are graining them . . . I don't want your input on my own grass based dairy. . . . who I buy my milk from.
I am thinking that you don't understand husbandry.
Kind regards,
Violet
http://www.kilbyridgefarmmaine.blogspot.com
Second, this arguing, bullying, bantering…whatever you want to call it…is typical of the instant yet impersonal tone of on-line communication. Every chat group/forum/blog I have ever participated in has degenerated into this. I can't remember – I think it was Abraham Lincoln? – who said you should destroy your first letter to anyone as it is likely an ineffective rant…something like that. I think it would behoove most of us to follow this advice. It's a good thing I didn't write my intended response last night as I was fuming and reading the comments to this post. I would like to think that if we met in person, we would be much more civil to each other.
Finally, I believe in our constitutional rights. Free speech is a key part of this. I also believe that food freedom is key to this. This year my husband and I decided to raise 3 hogs on our rural property. A neighbor, who is a lawyer, decided we should not be allowed to. She made our lives miserable for months as she threatened and intimidated us into submission. We were in our rights and held our ground. We got our own lawyer which eventually silenced her. But it made me realize several things. Fighting for anything is not fun or pretty. It truly sucks the life out of you. You cannot fight constantly and remain happy, healthy, and whole. Secondly, she really and truly believed in her stance. She said some very hurtful things to me across our fence. She attacked our character to our neighbors. She was, in her mind, standing up for herself. She believed in what she was doing. Right or wrong, when people believe in what they are doing they can do some amazing (read crazy) things. Some things to think about…
Jennifer Feeney's point is well taken. I have met a number of the people I've had painful online disagreements with about food rights, and that's exactly what happens–we are much more civil. It doesn't mean we change each others minds, but we are certainly more receptive to different views.
Disputes with neighbors are the worst, no matter what the specific issue. Add in the emotional component of food and, well, even worse. Good for Jennifer in fighting back.
David