I saw where the Minneapolis Star Tribune was asking customers of Michael Hartmann’s raw dairy to call in so public health authorities could identify and question them about possible illnesses. The paper didn’t say how many had called, but I would be surprised if many volunteer for that particular brand of civic uprightness
They won’t, for the same reason Janeen Covlin decided to avoid the hospital emergency room and instead treat her 11-month-old’s possible pathogen with coloidal silver and other holistic remedies (described following my May 27 posting). She was afraid of consulting with medical authorities about the illness. She feared the treatments they might want to use, or perhaps even force her to use, and I presume she was also nervous about how the information about illness might be used in the future.
There was a time we all were only too glad to help public health authorities in their work of fighting disease. That was a time when they were seen as friends, public servants. No longer. Increasingly, they are seen as overbearing arrogant bureaucrats with questionable agendas. Janeen’s reaction is a sad commentary on an ever-thicker wall of mistrust between the public health/medical communities, and ordinary people, including parents.
As many of the comments about my previous post suggest, the distrust extends not only to tracking of food-borne illness, but to the causes and evolution of food-borne illness, stemming from the fact that there is much about pathogens and foodborne illness that the scientific community doesn’t fully understand, but would have us believe it does understand.
Having said all that, I believe it’s important to make a distinction in the intense debate that’s been going on here. That’s the distinction between what I might call generally accepted standards of investigation and assessment of food-borne illness, and the larger matter of the origination and mechanisms of pathogens, perhaps exemplified best by Miguel’s commentary and hypotheses. I don’t know enough to add a lot to the latter discussion, and I think it’s worth having…yet I worry it can be distracting as well.
Right now, I am trying to stay focused on the immediate problem at hand, and in my view, that problem is unequal enforcement of regulations and laws affecting food-borne illness, borne of prejudiced public health and medical communities. Brandon Peak says it well,”It seems that the only people that don’t want to talk about safety is the government who is in bed with big ag. The only thing they want to talk about is eliminating raw milk.”
Lykke used to express frustration that arguments about raw milk safety got sidetracked into areas of science that weren’t well understood, or were at odds with established scientific thinking. While it’s clear there is much we don’t understand about food-borne illness, the reality is that there are certain things we do understand or, to put it another way, there are certain generally-accepted criteria about food-borne illness that are applied to all foods. It’s a little like accounting principles in business–executives have all kinds of ideas about how profits and losses should be accounted for, but in the end, everyone must abide by so-called “Generally accepted accounting principles” of reporting revenues and expenses.
In public health, one such generally accepted principle is that epidemiological studies–commonalities about the origins of illness–have credibility. Such studies helped scientists trace the causes of mass outbreaks of cholera and other diseases beginning in the mid-1800s to problem areas like contaminated water supplies. Epidemiological studies are used today to help investigators track culprits in all varieties of foodborne and other illness.
We also know that genetic linkages are quite reliable in associating certain pathogens with specific outbreaks. People may disagree with their validity, but the fact that pathogens with the same DNA fingerprint were found in four Minnesota individuals with food-borne illness is generally acceptable evidence the individuals all became ill from the same food. The question is whether that food is Michael Hartmann’s raw milk, and I’ve questioned a rush to judgment when there seem to be a number of uncertainties, such as over how many of the four may have consumed raw milk from the Hartmann dairy. Having said that, it’s not generally accepted, as Violet Willis says, “If there is no E. coli O157:H7 DNA match in the FLUID milk…then there is no case and you should look elsewhere for the source of the outbreak…” If the matching E.coli 0157:H7 is found in any of the milking cows’ manure, that would be compelling evidence the Hartmann milk was the culprit.
On the matter of the origination of E.coli 0157:H7, it may have started in feedlots, or it may have been a rare previously existing version of E.coli that simply thrived and multiplied in the feedlot environment. What is important now is that it can get into food in many different ways aside from feedlot cattle. As one primary example, which I describe in some detail in my book, The Raw Milk Revolution, the 2006 spinach outbreak was very likely caused by feral pigs contaminating organic spinach on a California farm. No direct feedlot involvement.
Moreover, people can become very ill from food-borne illness, as Mary McGonigle-Martin has movingly explained once again, in anticipating how one family with a very sick youngster in the Minnesota outbreak may be reacting. That’s a reality that happens rarely, but it does happen. No one knows exactly why it happens to certain people and not others. Yes, it could be a function of their immune system status, but it could also be a function of genetic makeup or some extreme allergic reaction, or a number of other things. The point is, though, that it happens, with any number of food carriers, including raw milk, raw spinach, and ground beef.
All of which leads me back to the opening of this post. There is enough uncertainty and complexity in the world of food-borne illness that raw dairy farmers and consumers shouldn’t be confronted with a regulatory system that, in addition to all the various knowns and unknowns, is totally prejudiced in its approach to certain foods. I think that’s where well-meaning individuals like Mary McGonigle-Martin have blind spots–they don’t fully appreciate how destructive the public health community’s prejudice against raw milk is, or how deeply it runs.
I would very much like to see, as Mary suggests, a common effort involving members of the public health community and dairy farmers to implement a reasonable and fair milk safety plan. Her biggest challenge, unfortunately, will be bringing public health and state agriculture officials to the table. That’s something else I’d be thrilled to be proven wrong on. As Steve Bemis, WI Raw Milk Consumer, Joseph Heckman, and others argue, there is lots of interest by the raw milk community in improving safety. Unless the regulators are willing to get off their “harass-raw-milk-producers” bandwagon, the best way to go is probably the direction Mark McAfee of Organic Pastures Dairy Co. advocates in his comment proposing a National Raw Milk Producers and Consumers Association. Until there’s a commitment by the public health community to treat food-borne illness in raw milk the same as that in any other food, the self-regulation approach makes much more sense.
There’s a risk here for the public health authorities, which Jerry Gregory begins to articulate following my previous post. They are dependent on public trust to be effective. As trust erodes, so does relevance. And as relevance erodes, so does budget. And budget is going to be scarcer than raw milk if public health people continue working with blinders on.
***
Wisconsin agriculture and public health regulators have a message for the state’s raw dairy farmers in lieu of the governor’s veto two weeks ago of the legislation that would have allowed direct-from-farm sales: We’re in charge here and we have the hammer.
Today, inspectors from the Wisconsin Department of Agriculture, Trade, and Consumer Protection, and from a local public health department, accompanied by six sheriff’s deputies, descended on the Grazin’ Acres farm owned by Vernon Hershberger. He says the search appears to be in connection with raw milk made available from his dairy, and a demand that he have a retail establishment permit for his store, which sells goods from the farm.
The inspectors had a “special inspection warrant” signed by a local judge, and proceeded to spend more than five hours going through the farm’s coolers and refrigerators cataloguing the farm’s dairy and other food offerings. The inspectors obtained the warrant after Hershberger initially refused to let them conduct an inspection. Near the end of the search, the inspectors prepared to take dairy samples.
Grazin’ Acres has been distributing raw milk to consumers under previous exemptions allowed by DATCP for some raw dairy producers, including a 2004 decision signed by Rod Nilsesteuen, secretary of agriculture. Since last fall, though, “DATCP has been harassing us.” This included a lengthy request for information several months ago that sought information on the dairy’s customers and suppliers going back many years. Hershberger says, “We answered it, but did not give any information. “
I want everyone to know that Mary Martin is welcome at OPDC and was once one of my customers. Her child became ill and she has lots of good energy to invest in making raw milk safe for those that choose to drink it.
If raw milk is going to make headway and serious progress….the dialogue must include "moms" and that includes perhaps some that have had their chidlren made ill from raw milk. Mary has learned much in the last 3.8 years and her voice is essential to this movement. Do not bash her….she is an essential link to Sheehan and others. Sheehan will not listen to us….but he may listen to her.
This may sound strange, but Mary Martin could very well be one of the "Missing Links"
( admittly there are many others as well inlcuding deep corruption ) to institutional and government agency progress. So please welcome her and her thoughts even if they seem outrageous. Her experience was outrageous so her thoughts may mirror those experiences. She has been through hospital and legal hell and then back from hell. She has a report to give us…. "all about a moms hell" so we hopefully do not have to visit producers or consumers hell as she did. She has much to teach us all and we have much to share with her as well. The more we listen the more she will be reasonable and welcome compromise. The more we listen the more we learn and the better our safety plans will be.
I experienced this same mom and illness relationship in 1997 with Laurie Girand ( an Odwalla Mom whose daughter had HUS from raw apple juice in November 1996 who was deeply involved with S.T.O.P. Safe Tables Our Priority…the Extreme Green Peace or even PETA of Food Safety Advocacy Orgs. ). Laurie and I became quick friends and it was with her insights that I developed my first farm safety plan in 1997-1998.
It is easy to bash and blame and harbour bad Karma…..it is far better but harder to forgive and listen ( I actually find it cleaning and it feels really good ).
I know the absolute benefits of raw milk as a medical superfood. That is why if go forward and teach… teach… teach….I want a national association of raw milk consumers and producers. I want research to be done ( ligitimate research not BS crap ) and I want good reasonable standards and safety programs to be made avaiable to both farmers and consumers.
We must shine a bright light on this subject….admit that raw milk can cause illness but when done well rarely if ever does….and most importantly….raw milk saves and improves lives
( thousands upon thousands of them ) and prevents and cures serious and life threatening immune related diseases.
This is my vision for progress. Mary is an injured mother lion…respect that.
Mark
To your health….
Mark
Her cell phone number is 608-295-9466.
Jackie is the one who was responsible for conducting the raid.
I thought that you were leaving us forever?
What changed your mind?
I want good reasonable standards and safety programs to be made available to both farmers and consumers. (Reasonable will need to be defined.)
Her child became ill and she has lots of good energy to invest in making raw milk safe for those that choose to drink it. (We can never forget why raw milk needs to be produced as safe as humanly possible.)
She has a report to give us…. "all about a moms hell" so we hopefully do not have to visit producers or consumers hell as she did. (Small family farmers dont need to be dealing with Bill.)
Remember, compromise works both directions. I have some friends who will guide me on ideas regarding standards for raw milk safety. Bill also has his 6 points. Hopefully I can be a conduit. Raw milk is a political hotbed and it is impossible to bring the opposing both sides together. Im a neutral figure with the single goal of establishing protocols for the safest raw milk possible, with the understanding that raw milk can never be made 100% safe.
Mark, I do need to be honest as we tread these waters together. I still question your ethical practices regarding outsourcing for cheese and butter. You said you have stopped and I hope you have. Im not accusing you of still doing this, but I would be caught in a moral bind if you still were. I am very sensitive about the subject of outsourcing. Im sure you can understand why. I couldnt work with you and the rest of the group if you were still outsourcing.
Im willing to see where this leads if you are.
Mary
I remember the case below with extreme sadness:
experienced this same mom and illness relationship in 1997 with Laurie Girand ( an Odwalla Mom whose daughter had HUS from raw apple juice in November 1996 who was deeply involved with S.T.O.P. Safe Tables Our Priority…the Extreme Green Peace or even PETA of Food Safety Advocacy Orgs. ). Laurie and I became quick friends and it was with her insights that I developed my first farm safety plan in 1997-1998.
First of all the raw apple juice that sickened many in 1996 was caused from the harvesting of "Dropped" Red Delicious and McIntosh apples (Low acid with high sugar content apple varieties) where cows had been pastured recently. These apples were contaminated with bovine feces – which was the vector of the particular the raw apple juice (cider) outbreak.
This practice IMHO was a no-no to begin with. As a child, I was raised on unpasteurized cider. The dropped apples were NEVER taken to the press and only apples with a high acid content such as "Northern Spry" were used.
We have over 500 apple trees on our farm. We also have a 150 year old cider press in our barn. We looked into pressing cider (unpasteurized) and bottling it – no can do. I would have to charge at least $40.00 per gallon. There are way too many regulations all because of that one Odwalla outbreak. Remember – I was raised on cider in the raw form and was never, ever sick. We do press our own cider here on the farm with our press – but sadly, it can only be consumed by my own family.
Those apple orchards that raised those tasy Northern Spry apples for cider – all gone now (My parents used some of the chopped up apple wood for their fireplace a year before they left Michigan) after the new regulations came about in the late 1990’s – directly due to the actions of the lady you became great friends with, Mark. Another nutrient dense food produced for 1000’s of years gone due to one stupid mistake and alot of legal motions.
Mary Martin is no different from Laurie so please beware.
Kind regards,
Violet
As I have stated before – you have no idea on how to craft a "Safe Raw Milk Protocol" or any other regulation (where is your farming experience, microbiology degree or your legislative record as a public servant). There is no 100% proof your child was sickened by raw milk – period.
It insults my intelligence that you even have a voice.
Kind regards,
Violet
Mary is a hero and a woman of great integrity. You are not even in a nearby universe.
Re: OP E. coli outbreak, even Mark agrees that it happened.:
http://www.marlerblog.com/2009/03/articles/lawyer-oped/organic-pastures-dairy-e-coli-o157h7-raw-milk-product-outbreak-2006/
Mark, it is time to simply tell these small minded people the truth. It will be good for you and the raw milk movement.
Mark has learned from that and has moved on. Given his last several posts, he has the capacity to learn and grow that you clearly do not.
You are just another business sucking at the teat of state and federal taxpayers, essentially getting a government subsidy. Taxpayer dollars pay for the CDC, FDA, et al, who do your research for you. They (me, and all other taxpayer supporters of raw milk) pay for the research that is turned against them by your kind.
All that is left for you to do is make the tearjerker videos and squeeze a bit on the insurance company’s cajones. Dumbed down juries will do the rest if an insurance company doesn’t capitulate.
An insurance company has absolutely no reason to fight a suit, even a wrongful one, while anyone who can pass the bar has every reason to file a suit regardless of viability. There is no upside, win or lose, for the insurance company, and there is no downside, win or lose, for the shyster lawyer and his client other than some copying costs and wasted time.
You have said you believe in loser pays. OK…let’s have REAL loser pays. If a farmer produces milk here in my town, and someone gets sick and claims it is from raw milk and sues for one million dollars, and wins, the farmer and/or insurance company is out a million bucks plus costs.
Let’s make it even. If the farmer wins, not only does the loser pay the winner’s legal fees, he also pays the farmer the same million bucks that the farmer had at risk.
BOTH might win a million, but BOTH might lose a million.
Up for that, Marler?
Bob BubbaBozo Hayles
http://www.JuicyMaters.com
http://www.marlerblog.com/2009/05/articles/legal-cases/the-alexandre-eco-farms-dairy-raw-milk-campylobacter-outbreak/
Or the voice of the children who became ill during the Dee Creek raw milk outbreak in 2005. I know they found the matching blueprint of E.coli 0157:H7 in the manure and possibly in the milk also.
Hopefully this little trick of the mind will help you be less traumatized by my voice in this matter.
Mary McGonigle-Martin
Methinks Bill might be coaching you in this matter:)
I have never stated that raw milk cannot sicken people – as I have said before many, many times it is the way the animals are treated as in the "HUSBANDRY" that can create stresses on an animal and cause disease -CAFO type farms come to mind. I have also stated that one should "know thy farmer" and buy locally directly from the farm if possible.
If a farm smells and the animals are not happy then you should not eat from it – period.
You are welcome to visit my farm, Mary. I think you would be pleasantly surprised.
Btw. . . Bill, you are welcome to visit too (Since I seem to have struck a nerve with you:). My husband would be happy to talk to you. He just loved his tort classes in Law School . . .
Kind regards,
Violet
http://www.kilbyridgefarmmaine@blogspot.com
Well, I may be wrong, but given the two ad hominums you just posted, I think David might let this one go.
Back in the bottle…teabagger…you learned well at the knee of Alinsky, Ayres, and Obama. Most knew you were scum. Now we all do.
Bob BubbaBozo Hayles
Mark, time to tell the truth. Help these folks out of their small minded darkness. Admitting that you had an E. coli problem in 2006 will go a long way to moving the movement forward.
We all know you wouldn’t agree to my suggestion on loser pays. You wouldn’t agree for two reasons…
First, you are a coward. Everyone but you is supposed to take a risk legally…everyone but you. You are too much a coward.
Second, you wouldn’t do it because you are such a crappy lawyer that you know that on a level playing field you would lose…not some cases, not most cases, but ALL of them.
Hayles
Bob, I hope there is never another raw milk outbreak, but if there is, and you still are sober and can recall this conversation, I will take that bet.
Any outsourcing stopped years ago.
"Epidemiologic evidence" was found…."causation" was not found.
I am open to working on food safety plans for the good of the farmers and consumers of America….and building immune systems in our children.
One of the pieces of missing technology is the instant pathogen test. If that could be found for the four ugly pathogens….this discussion would get much easier.
Mark
Methinks you should look into the mirror yourself . . . . .
Kind regards,
Violet
If so though, I am at least human. Don’t you wish you could make that claim?
Hayles
I had fun looking into the dirty underbelly of mass produced meat:
http://www.marlerblog.com/2010/06/articles/lawyer-oped/marlers-response-to-the-american-meat-institute-statement-on-new-bill-to-declare-additional-strains-of-e-coli-as-adulterants/
I wonder how testing raw milk in retail would work out?
Bubba, get back to the bottle.
Violet, I never suggested that I was smart. But being smart on this blog is clearly not important.
I’m smart enough not to take your bait.
Goodnight.
With this epithet, you have lost many who might otherwise be sympathetic to your cause, or at least willing to keep the lines of communication open. Given this attitude on your part, I’ll assume you don’t care. But what do I know? I’m just an ignorant racist teabagger.
Consumers are smarter than we acknowledge. That is our trump card. Know Your Source!!!
-Blair
If only for pro raw milk people, not all that interesting a conversation. "We" are all reading out of the same hymnal. "We" need a dialog that isn’t happening with others that oppose us, to understand where they’re coming from and see what we can come up with.
Any chance we can cut with the personal insults? It makes everyone look juvenile and any other ideas that are presented by the same people to be less effective than they otherwise would be. It’s all very personal to us all.
Spirited debate – great
nothing but insults – juvenile and non-productive
Endless debate about the past – not productive (don’t look back, we’re not going that way…)
So – now that we’ve gotten it all out of our systems – (I like a good insult session as much as the next guy – but come on)
THANK you to EVERYONE that posts here, but ESPECIALLY to the Bill Marler & Lykke’s as whatever agenda it is they may or may not have, they are representing a goodly number of people’s opinions that needs to be considered if we are to move ahead. I appreciate all that can let insults roll off of them and continue thinking and debating.
Peace!
Scott Trautman, Despite the Very Best Efforts of the State of Wisconsin, STILL PROUD Wisconsin Dairyman (TM)
The beauty of raw milk is it’s potential for unconvention…it is different. Time after time I hear those on both sides of the issue trying to pigeonhole it back into the conventional food supply paradigm. Those that look at it that way do the raw stuff, and those small producers who really ‘get it’, a tremendous disservice. The potential is more vast when we look at it without prejudice.
I avoid Marlers blog AND BubbaBozo’s too. While on different sides of the fence, they are obviously cut from the same clothe. Reminds me of kids in a sandbox. While this blog is about raw milk, their blogs seem totally about themselves….and both of their egos aren’t worth stroking with better traffic numbers. I recommend we ignore them both…maybe they take their petty bickering somewhere else.
dj…the tea party movement has been coopted. What started out as a movement to promote FISCAL conservatism (which many social liberals totally agree with) has been hijacked by those who like to tell others how to live their lives (social conservatives). The hate and intolerance of the neocons can not be hid behind the greasepaint of some Bostonians in the Harbor.
ps got to spend some time with another of my milk babies the other day. Bright eyed and full of energy, it really is fulfilling understanding your role, your part, in making a new life healthier.
The milk must continue to flow….legal, illegal, above board, under the table….it doesn’t matter. Giving those that want it, an opportunity to get to know a farmer, and have that farmer contribute to their quality of life, is paramount to all else.
Here is the full news story about the raid on Hershberger farm in WI, with a video link to the segment which aired last night
http://www.wkow.com/Global/story.asp?S=12585898
You do not want this.
This is Codex Alimentarius and its Good Agricultural Practices.
The international standards for raw milk production are being written RIGHT NOW by New Zealand Company Cullen Agritech.
The ‘National Raw Milk Standards’ they will advocate do not include you and me.
They will include Cullen Agritech and their corporate minions, who have the money and political connections to corner the market.
Do you not realize that the very thing you are advocating to ensure that raw milk is ‘safe’ is the very thing that will put us farmers out of business?
Do your research. Understand the bigger picture. And be careful of what you wish for.
I can not admit to something that has no factual "causation". I will agree that OPDC "may have sickened" several children in 2006 but there is not link to prove this. Our insurance settlement specifically denies any causation and was signed with out any admission of causation. You know this.
What is most interesting is that both hospitalized kids ate spinach and were given Antibiiotics. Giving Antibiotics to an anti biotic resisistant bacteria is now a medical no no and results in HUS in many cases.
Both hospitalized kids did not have matching pathogens. Yet…no pathogens were found at OPDC or in our cows manure or in our creamery that matched the kids.
There are many questions that will never be answered. I will not give an answer now that assumes guilt for illness when there are so many answered questions and gaps in facts.
Why did 50,000 other consumers of OPDC raw milk in Sept 2006 not get sick?? Seems statistically wrong. Why did the incident happen exactly in the middle of a huge spinach recall that killed three and sickened 200??? There is some evidence that more than one spinach DNA finger print existed. There was a group of 13 kids in New Orleans that ate CA spinach in a smoothie and they had a different strain…but they did not eat any OPDC??? This happened in Sept 2006 as well. Not all kids that got sick had drank raw milk from OPDC. Some denied drinking raw milk. Why did CDFA tell the Fresno Bee that there was no link between OPDC and any illnesses?? Why did CDFA pay for the recall and offer a settlement release to keep from being sued???
This incident is settled. What is not settled is my stomach. I learned something from this incident. I never want to revisit this kind of incident again and want to work hard to assure that it never happens again for the consmer or the farmer. Thats why we developed our RAMP food safety program inspite of the SB 201 veto by our governor we did it any way…volentarily.
The level of ugly bickering here is not becoming of a purposeful duscussion.
I want progress. I want Wisconsin to stop denying farmers and consumers a real food connection. There needs to be civil unrest and it needs to come from the consumers not just the farmers. We need to talk about raw milk as a medical superfood and build this market.
At this point I am concerned that the consumers will not act to protect their farmers.
I would ask the farmers to lead their consumers and give them direction. A raw milk revolt in Wisconsin is way overdue…!!
IN CA we have never had higher sales and or happier consumers. This is unfair and unjust. Americans are Americans. Wisconsin or CA….both are in America.
Fight like your health depends on it….cause it does!!! Call for a press conference and fight back with the facts and the injustice of it all??? Stop playing victum and stand up and kick their asses.
Most kind regards,
Mark
Marlers next shot comes in, I believe, comment 11 where his first sentence, to a person who wasnt even talking to him, is, Violet, I honestly feel very sorry for you. Your mind must be so small that a thimble hat falls around your ears.
In comment 12 I take my first shot, but I still dont resort to ad hominum attacks. I simply point out, admittedly in a smart assed way, that Marler is just another business getting a government handout, with taxpayer dollars, in the form of FDA and CDC doing his research for his lawsuits, paying his way, with his only input being tear jerker videos and squeezing on insurance companies.
This is where the back and forth really begins its downhill slide.
Comment 13, from Marler, Bubba, you must be back on the bottle Go back to trying to get people from this site to yours You, my friend are even more smallminded than most of the others Well, Violet might join up with you.
There are two problems here. First, the straight up ad hominum, Bubba, you must be back on the bottle, then the lesser insult, You, my friend are even more smallminded than most of the others Well, violet might join up with you.
From Marler, in comment 15, You really need to stop your teabagger bullshit. Get back to the bottle.
From Hayles, in comment 17, I answered ad hominum with ad hominum (I know, my bad). back in the bottle and teabagger bullshit (especially the back in the bottle remark. Ive worked my ass off to get out and stay out of the bottle, and ignorant assholes like Marler really piss me off for myself and for other recovering alcoholics) prompted my Bottom Feeding Pond Scum lawyer description. Sorry.
I will say, I thought my Alinsky/Ayres/Obama shot was pretty good (LOL).
Marler, comment 18, Violet, Bubba-pathetic. What? Hes back on Violet? Im the one that just called him bottom feeding pond scum.
Hayles, comment 19, Frankly, I dont consider any of that an ad hominum. Agree or disagree, it is my honest opinion of Marler, period.
Marler, comment 20, $500,000,000 reasons to say youre still a pathetic drunk Bob. Damn, but he just cant get off the drunk, drinking, alcoholic, bottle and homonyms, can he?
Hayles, comment 23, If so ago, I am at least human. Dont you wish you could make that claim? I dont think that was too bad after his bad human comment, do you?
Hayles, comment 24, No homonyms, very little that could be called personal attack, just my opinion. My Totally Honest Opinion.
Marler, comment 27, Bubba, get back to the bottle.
David, should have let it go, but the whole drinking, drunk, bottle thing really pushes my buttons Not so much for me, but for the tens and hundreds of thousands of recovering alcoholics that must deal with that kind of ignorant bullshit daily while staying, sometimes with great difficulty, sober.
Marler claims to care so much about people After all, he claims that is why he does what he does, yet its his attitude, spread among many, that kills peoplepeople who fight and struggle to stay sober, but then finally give up, figuring, why fight? Why try to change? Why bother staying sober? People are just going to think the same old crap.
Well, screw Marler. My BFPS descriptor stands. I know its true. Marler knows its true.
Thats enough for me.
Bob Hayles
We have won the battle over public opinion.
Bill Marler,
Rather than waste your time trading insults,why don’t we try to understand what the scientific facts are concerning PFGE "fingerprints".I still haven’t seen any information that supports the validity of using PFGE to match two bacterial strains from unknown origin.Accusations that someone caused great harm to another need to be supported by sound science.The University of California research casts a great deal of doubt on the use of PFGE the way it is used by epidemiologists.Can you tell me why the research is wrong?
If Marler wants to decry "teabagger bullshit", more power to him. He will only continue to alienate those he should be trying to persuade. Such tactics do not win hearts or minds — only foment further resistance.
By they way, as they say, "game, set, match":
Minnesota Department of Health and Minnesota Department of Agriculture
News Release
June 3, 2010
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Thursday, June 3, 2010
CONTACTS:
Michael Schommer, MDA Communications, 651-201-6629, michael.schommer@state.mn.us
Doug Schultz, MDH Communications, 651-201-4993, doug.schultz@state.mn.us
State testing matches E. coli bacteria from Gibbon farm with those from ill consumers
ST. PAUL, Minn. Laboratory testing conducted by the Minnesota Department of Agriculture (MDA) and the Minnesota Department of Health (MDH) this week provided additional evidence that the Hartmann dairy farm, of rural Gibbon, was the source of a strain of E. coli O157:H7 bacteria that sickened at least five Minnesotans after they consumed raw, unpasteurized milk or other dairy products from the farm. MDH reported four cases of illness last week, and a fifth case has subsequently been confirmed in a young child who was not hospitalized.
MDH first discovered the outbreak through reports of E. coli O157:H7 illness from health care providers. The department conducted an investigation into the illnesses, which were scattered across the state, and found that the only thing the ill people had in common was consumption of dairy products from the Hartmann farm. This strong epidemiological link is now reinforced by the laboratory confirmation that the specific strain of E. coli O157:H7 found in the ill patients has also been found in multiple animals and at multiple sites on the Hartmann farm. This strain of E. coli has not previously been found in Minnesota. Furthermore, laboratory tests confirmed that cheese samples collected last week from the farm contained another form of Shiga toxin-producing E. coli, demonstrating that an ongoing pathway of contamination existed on the farm.
The test results underscore the dangers of consuming milk that has not been pasteurized to eliminate E. coli and other potentially deadly bacteria. Leading public health organizations such as the Food and Drug Administration, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the American Medical Association, the World Health Organization and the American Academy of Pediatrics all advocate pasteurization as a standard public health practice.
Raw milk presents a serious health risk, said Minnesota Health Commissioner Dr. Sanne Magnan. This risk isnt a matter of personal opinion; its an established scientific fact. Drinking raw milk or eating products made from raw milk can expose consumers to a variety of organisms that can result in anything from a few days of diarrhea to kidney failure and death. Raw milk is especially dangerous for children, whose immune systems cant fight off infection as well as healthy adults.
In addition to the cases linked to the Hartmann farm, MDH is investigating several other illnesses with a connection to products from the farm. MDA has embargoed dairy products on the Hartmann farm, prohibiting movement or release of the products off the farm.
It is illegal to sell raw milk in Minnesota, although occasional sales are allowed on the farm where the milk is produced. For details, visit the MDA website at http://www.mda.state.mn.us/en/food/safety/rawmilkinfo.aspx. Additional information, including a newly developed Frequently Asked Questions document is available on the MDH website at http://www.health.state.mn.us/foodsafety/foods/rawmilk.html.
-30-
You can update or cancel your subscription at any time by editing your personal profile. All you will need are your e-mail address and your password (if you have selected one).
This service is provided free of charge by: Minnesota Department of Health.
P.S. If you have any questions or problems please contact support@govdelivery.comfor assistance.
GovDelivery, Inc. sending on behalf of the Minnesota Department of Health 625 Robert Street North St. Paul MN 55155 651-201-5000
Have you forgotten that MDA and MDH are working for the people that are implementing Healthy People 2020.One of the stated goals is to"reduce the number of states where raw milk is legal".Why should we trust their interpretation of this information?We know they are biased.Again,show me the science that says you can use PFGE testing to match bacteria samples when the test only can be legitimately used for bacteria that you know originated from one known source.Because the test only looks at a small number of the thousands of bits of DNA.
""The key point of RFPs in general and PFGE specifically is that while the data infer genetic relationships between isolates, they do not necessarily represent true genetic relationships (6). Differences in RFPs indicate that isolates are genetically different, but the true degree of the genetic distance separating these isolates cannot be determined from RFPs. In contrast, similarities in RFPs do not necessarily mean that isolates are genetically similar. As the number of REs included in PFGE increases, the correlation between RFP similarity and true genetic similarity is likely to increase (6). However, the conclusions drawn from any molecular study must be put in the context of the other information associated with the isolates. The strength of isolate identity is greatest when epidemiologic data support point source or common elements of dissemination. Because of the high degree of subjectivity involved with the interpretation of RFPs, the user must carefully and thoughtfully select the conditions and techniques for performing, analyzing, and using PFGE fingerprints."
The raw milk movement is going to come to a screeching halt if safety issues are not addressed. I sure hope the child with HUS is stabilized.
Bozo, the constitution does not give farmers the right to poison people.
cp
Would you accept the results of this investigation if it was done by the Weston A. Price foundation?That is what you expect of us.The people in charge of the testing and the subjective interpretation of the test results are on record as opposed to unpasteurized milk being available.If the Weston Price Foundation investigated and found no connection between the illness and the milk,would you be the one denying the validity of their investigation? What we have here is a biased group of people doing the investigation.We would have to be fools to believe what they say.
You are in denial of reality if you really believe that food safety is the driving force behind the anti-raw-milk crusade.
Case in point — the WI Dairy Farmer Vernon Hershberger who was just raided by DATCP yesterday.
No accusations of illness. None. It has nothing to do with food safety. It has to do with corporate dominance.
I am in favor of creating microbiological and hygene standards for raw milk production, because I understand that is the only way to have a free market for raw milk. Look at place where raw milk is widely available — California, and much Europe. There ARE standards and regulationls.
I do not believe, however, for one second that the regulatory authorities in WI and much of the U.S. today are motivated by a genuine concern for public health. They (and you, and Bill Marler) are more interested in ruling by fear and control than in ensuring food safety.
– Homogenization (appears to contribute to atherosclerosis through xanthine oxidase)
– A1 versus A2 casein (goats and Guernseys have A2 casein; A1 breaks down into casomorphins having opiate-like effects on the brain, and has been linked in epidemiological studies to various diseases of civilization)
– The extent to which a grain-heavy diet (bad for us as well as cows!) causes leaky gut (intestinal permeability), leading to autoimmune disorders and what on the surface appears to be "dairy intolerance"
All relevant, and all demanding of further investigation.
As to whether there is a right to poison people, certainly no sane person with two brains cells to rub together would claim that there was. But given the innate toxicity of grains and sugar to the human animal, you may want to think carefully before opening that particular can of worms lest you find yourself hoist on your own petard.
Think about that one. It’ll come to you.
Bob BUBBABOZO Hayles
You may be right about Marler and CP.
But I strongly beg to differ with your assertion that there should be no regulation of raw milk. This is a recipe for certain failure and eventual outlaw of raw milk, as we see more outbreaks and eventually the general public turns against raw milk. Most people are on our side right now… they will not be if we are killing babies because of reckless and dirty raw milk production. It is my contention that DATCP and FDA want raw milk to be dirty and dangerous so they can continue going on rampages like they have.
If you look at any industrialized nation or U.S. state (namely, California) where raw milk is widely available, it is a regulated product. Here’s the distinction — reasonable, science based regulation to protect public health is not the same thing as the vindictive, arbitrary and protectionist regulations we see in our current situation.
There does absolutely need to be an outcry and strong local grassroots organization against DATCP, FDA, and their likes. But what shall we do to replace the current system? Mark McAfee is taking a strong leadership role in creating productive solutions.
Like you always say, if you are hammer, everything becomes a nail. I don’t think the problem is inherint to regulation per-se, the problem is corporate power and the design of our current regulatory system.
We would do well to learn from the regulatory systems of Europe which are much more science-based and inclusive of varied practices than our authoritarian and corporate-controlled regime. Granted, they are not perfect (no system ever will be). But take this example — In France, there is a traditional protected raw milk cheese (Salers) that is made in a wooden vat with no added starter culture. (The starter culture lives in the wood). Can you imagine what DATCP, FDA, etc… would have to say about doing that in the U.S.?
Problem – Reaction – Solution
Problem: Raw milk is "illegal"; state departments of agriculture and public health officials site raw milk as a possible disease vector for the reason it is so.
Reaction: "We need a common effort involving members of the public health community and dairy farmers to implement a reasonable and fair milk safety plan"; i.e. National Raw Milk Standards; Mark McAfee’s National Raw Milk Farmers and Consumers Alliance.
Solution: Codex Alimentarius and its Good Agricultural Practices seal of approval (with grass-fed raw milk standards already neatly written into it!). Bet you didn’t realize that you walked right into it, did you?
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt_and_politics/article_4b287dde-bf0a-5984-9f79-f9a6e933523d.html
http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/govt_and_politics/article_e5ded8ea-6f27-11df-906f-001cc4c002e0.html
Why an absolute no to federal regulation? At the risk of being accused by Marler of only coming here to promote my blog, I’ll suggest this:
http://www.juicymaters.com/foodpolitics/
Incidentally, an intermediary has been asked to convey an invite to Marler to make the article in the above link a "point-counterpoint" thing…with the only rule being no personal attacks, no ad hominums. Sarcasm…yes…neither Marler or I could refrain, but the way I put it in the invite was "nothing either of us would refrain from saying in court in front of a judge that didn’t have us on his Christmas card list", or words to that effect.
We’ll see.
Bob BUBBABOZO Hayles
There’s a saying I’ve learned from some old leftists.
Never mind getting the U.S. military/corporate interests out of Iraq, Afghanistan, Cuba, Venezuala, Mexico, etc…
Try this on for size:
"U.S. out of North America."
This is going to be a long post so please bear with me. I will be very busy in the next few weeks due to our farm store grand opening – so I will not be posting for quite some time. I wish to respond not only to Mary and Bill but to thank Bob Hayles for posting a very accurate recap.
Firstly, Mary – I really wish you the best with the health of your son. I honestly know what you went through as I went through something similar with my own son. We do not share, however, the same viewpoint on raw milk and probably never will. Your lack of experience in the "Whole Food" movement such as being a farmer or consuming whole foods for many years does not justify sitting on a board and telling others how to produce raw milk – you simply do not have this type of experience.
Second, Bill – you can say whatever you want about my intelligence but I was smart enough not to take your final bait. You did say things to me that were very, very rude – also, I never attacked Mary, I just stated that she should never sit on a board telling others how to produce raw milk – it was insulting to my intelligence. The above explains my response.
Blair – I am sorry your were embarassed by my dialog. I forget however, where you stand as you are always offended by anyone who states any passionate opinions on this blog. I do remember how appalled you were with heated exchanges before and you threatened to leave. Remember – I am all for "Food Choice and Food Freedom" – never, ever be afraid to passionately state your own opinions.
As to the situation regarding the outbreak at Michael Hartmann’s farm – if E. coli O157:H7 has been recently found on the farm in fecal samples I am wondering if a new herd member introduced this germ to the farm within the last 6-12 months. I would hope that any new herd member would have fecals checked to make sure they are not carrying anything. I bet that this is what happened to Mike’s dairy.
As I have said before. It is all about husbandry. The only shepherds that I know who have deaths, disease and persistent parasites are those that routinely introduce sheep or other ruminants from other farms, I have been raising sheep, chickens, turkeys and most recently ducks in a closed flock system for four years now and we have had no disease problems. Our poultry is routinely inspected upon slaughter as well – all clean and healthy. It is also important to have a balanced mineral program which relieves any stresses on ruminants such as cattle, sheep and goats. Good pastures, shelter and top quality hay are also very important (along with minimal stresses).
I stumbled upon this blog way back in 2006 when I first introduced my family to raw milk. At that time – with no ill effects and many positive health benefits – I wondered what the big deal was. Unfortunately, now I know.
Everything I have learned from this blog will help us when we finally open up our sheep dairy in two years. I am hoping to create some wonderful aged raw milk cheeses with my icelandic sheep milk. That is – unless the government steps in and creates more unfunded mandates on raw dairy farmers.
cp and Bill Marler – No farmer wishes to poison anyone – that would be financial suicide.
BTW – that invitation is still open for everyone who participates on this blog to visit our farm. Our farm store grand opening date is July 2nd from 10-5. We will be open W – Saturday 10-5. If you are a member of this blog – and for putting up with all my very "Direct" posts – you will get 20% off all produce, meat and fiber until September 2nd.
Kind regards,
Violet J. Willis – Shepherd
http://www.kilbyridgefarmmaine@blogspot.com
109 Main Street
Dennysville, Maine 04628
(207) 726-4765
As for Blair…don’t sweat her…some folks are confrontational on things they believe in, some are not, and each bugs the hell out of the other. Blair is OK and I appreciate knowing where she stands, despite her lack of intenjsity.
Bob BUBBABOZO Hayles
It is at least something that the E.Coli strain has been found on the Hartmann farm. I do have a deep distrust of the organization that is doing the testing, but it is their findings that are the generally accepted routes of "fact" generation in cases. I also lean more to miguel’s side with questioning the methods that the testing is done. It wouldn’t be the first time that we, as a society, have found that our scientific testing procedures were fundamentally flawed somehow.
All of that being said HOWEVER, I think the most important and immediate course of action would be to help Mr. Hartmann and his family find out how the E.Coli strain got onto his property and into their products. Then help them learn how they can prevent it in the future – truly help them – not here let us help shut you down help them.
It’s too bad that the apple grower couldn’t just produce safe apples then, heck, we might still be able to get raw apple juice commercially and people wouldn’t have gotten sick and died. it’s just hard for me to blame mothers for that one.
In the spirit of improvement, I know you all feel like all I do is beat this outsourcing dead horse, but I read words very carefully. Mark said here that he hasn’t outsourced for *years* and yet in October on this blog he admitted to outsourcing in 2009.
I asked that he make his records available so that we can verify his claim that he has stopped. (If you all remember he led you to believe in April of 2008 that he had stopped and yet he had not.) Given that he has outsourced in the past, that his colostrum line continues to be unregulated, that his market is growing, and that in his last inspection report (posted online at fresnohealthinspections.org) he reported milking only 250 cows, we need to give this a look. This herd size number is less than the number he told us he was milking in 2006 according to his press reports — a time when he was definitely outsourcing. I saw thousands of gallons brought in during the fall of 2007. There was not just a little bit of outsourcing. OPDC got some new heifers recently, but I still don’t see how the math works out. In the video Mark linked "Grass to Glass," he shows a truck that he fills with 22,000# of milk — that’s about 2500 gallons. His inspection report says he produces 1,000 a day. That truck used to be on the road six days a week. I realize it may not always be full and there are other alternative explanations, but the numbers don’t add up and given the past outsourcing, this issue needs to be cleared up.
Let’s look at milk pool records and get this all settled.
All of this is to say that practices like outsourcing can very well lead to deaths as in the Odwalla case that can very well lead to the end of raw milk availability. If OPDC is outsourcing and someone dies as a result, bye bye raw milk.
Bye bye.
This is an important issue for consumer access to raw milk.
It’s time to take a step back and realize why I’m making this an issue. California’s raw milk availability would be gone in an instance. The rest would follow.
Bye bye Colorado raw milk. Bye bye.
Amanda
site:http://www.nfljerseyonline.com.
site:http://www.bagonhand.com.
site:http://www.sportshoes007.com