A Colorado Dairy Owner on the Hot Seat Shares His Sense of Responsibility; Finally, a Regulator with Some Guts
Sunday, April 12, 2009 at 11:35AM 
There have been a couple of very interesting glimpses into the real world of suspected pathogens and regulation around raw milk this weekend.
First and foremost, there is Scott Freeman’s disarmingly candid account (on the second page of comments, following my previous post) of what’s happened at his Kinikin Corner Dairy in Colorado (logo pictured above) since he began learning about possible campylobacter illnesses from among his shareholders. Before I say anything else, I want to thank Scott for sharing his experience. He’s dealing with a huge amount of stress and uncertainty right now—the Colorado Health Department’s lab analysis of his milk hasn’t yet come back—yet he took time to share with us. He could have shut down his phones and gone radio silent, but he didn’t. Very brave.
Big picture, what I get from his account is both the huge amount of responsibility Scott feels and his determination to do the right thing. He’s not defensive, nor is he locked into a particular ideological approach.
Three other things stand out here:
- Scott wants to learn from this experience. He honestly wants to determine if there is a problem and, if there is, to fix it and make sure it isn’t a problem again.
- His shareholders are standing with him. He wanted to suspend distribution, yet “I’m sure to the health department’s surprise, most wanted their milk,” he says. He finally shut off distribution after the state ordered him to last Tuesday.Goes to show, though, that raw milk consumers understand the potential risks associated with raw milk, yet see the health benefits from consuming raw milk as outweighing any concerns.
- If the campylobacter is from his milk, it has affected a small number of consumers—eight out of 175, it seems.
We’re all definitely eager to hear the rest of this story, and I hope Scott will continue sharing.
The second development was the airing by the Food Network last evening of its long-awaited program about raw milk (and raw honey). As Mark McAfee says in his comment following my previous post, Liz Reitzig was the star. She was articulate and animated. “I’m a raw milk freedom fighter,” she says during the program, which shows her traveling from Maryland to Pennsylvania to obtain milk, of her efforts to get raw milk legalized in her home state.
But there were some other stars as well. There was a man picking up his raw milk from a secret Maryland co-op (since raw milk is illegal in the state) who said he had worked for the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for 25 years. “It took me 25 years to realize raw milk was good for me,” he said.
And then there was Ted Elkin of the Maryland Office of Food Protection. At the end of the 15-minute segment devoted to raw milk, Liz pays a visit to Elkin’s office to discuss raw milk. It is obviously staged, and the regulator is unyielding, but the simple fact that a state regulator goes toe-to-toe with a raw milk advocate in public is a first of sorts. When Liz challenges his statement that raw milk inherently contains pathogens, Elkin retorts, “It does, it does, it does.” Not much room for acommodation there.
Ted Elkin better watch out: His mentor at the FDA, dairy czar John Sheehan, isn’t going to take well to such shenanigans. Sheehan won’t even venture into the same building as raw milk advocates.
***
I'd like to share my regret over my previous posting, in suggesting that Concerned Person somehow was complicit with MarlerClark in its posting of documents from the California Department of Food and Agriculture filed in connection with a legal case. I only wanted to draw attention to the documents, and used CP's link as an excuse.
I also would like to discourage participants here from engaging in personal attacks on others who comment. I know many of us are very passionate about the stakes in the raw milk conflict, but it doesn't further anyone's interests to question the personal motives or integrity of others.
Reader Comments (43)
david, you should not regret what is so obvious. i'll also drop the agenda hammer for awhile, my goal is to make readers aware when they're being manipulated so they can keep their awareness of how easy it is be so used.
co. needs to track the source of their stomach flu outbreak. can they be encouraged to do so? or is it easier to lay the blame on real milk and ignore the evidence outside of that circle of 175 with 8 illnesses?
it will be interesting to see how this develops.
Folks like Blair and the CO organization represent hope...a path to common ground and a voice of reason. That is something to watch!
Scott's posting was very moving. In contrast to those who alluded that they do not care; it showed great passion and concern.
Will anyone research why only 8 out of 175 became ill? What is different about those who were ill than those who weren't? Had they been consuming raw milk for a period of time? Many many unanswered questions.
People have accused raw milk because there is a "common link" The same can be said for vaccinations and autisim, there is that common link. Yet no absolute proof that vaccs don't lead to autisim, for which has increased at an alarming rate, just as MS, ALS and other diseases have.
There is more to this than is being reported.....
That there should be more 'maniacs' like MM and Huge...it would be a better world.
Sad and desperate describes Sheehan, Pirelli and the rest of the fear mongering, truth twisting, 'Russian Roulette' crowd...
Assuming this campylobacter infection is caused by the real milk, has any of the 8 victims had recent antibiotic use or have any of them used PPIs or H2 blockers: ranitidine, omeprazole, ie Zantac, Prilosec, Nexium, etc?
"Assuming this campylobacter infection is caused by the real milk, has any of the 8 victims had recent antibiotic use or have any of them used PPIs or H2 blockers: ranitidine, omeprazole, ie Zantac, Prilosec, Nexium, etc?"
Kirsten,
I spoke with the HD today and asked if they would ask specific questions (such as the drug question you post above, as well as others) of people who got sick during an alleged raw milk outbreak, and though she said the HD had some of the same questions, there probably would be insufficient scientific data to bother making these questions part of the interview. I asked her if they would do it anyway, and she said no but they had talked about adding similar questions. I had the impression she was taking notes, so maybe some day...on their terms.
I was also told that they had made a positive link to Kinikin Dairy for 2 of the 10 people (of the 10 that drank raw milk).
They had told Scott they were doing a cohort study (which is supposed to compare 2 different groups of consumers, to see if there is a difference in the disease incidence - if I understand this correctly.) When I asked about their cohort study, I was told that the only population they would study is the Kinikin Dairy shareholders. So if they find that 10 more people had diarrhea during the same time period, it's up to them to decide whether it was the same symptoms as Campylobacter or just a 'bug' going through the community. No stool samples will be taken. They will diagnose based on experience of interviewer. Any additional illnesses attributed to Campylobacter in this group will be documented as caused by raw milk from Kinikin Dairy.
In general, the consensus is that it was caused by raw milk, though they admitted that there is no proof, but based on "high numbers" of raw milk drinkers, it is statistically significant.
They took another milk sample today and gave Scott a list of conditions he needs to meet in order to resume production. Meanwhile, all that milk is being dumped, and all his shareholders are out of milk.
-Blair
You can see the interview for Campy patients here:
http://www.cdphe.state.co.us/dc/epidemiology/manual/CampyCaseInv.pdf
You might find this link helpful, although it is from a different state. Note the type of questions asked during campylobacter investigations. Personally, I do not think there is a bias toward raw milk while conducting these investigations. Please note that the invesitigators in this and other states ask many quesitons - no specific focus on raw milk. Most often, we find no link to any specific food...I can think of an example in my state not long ago where the "cause" was listed as unknown after all the interviews - patients had exposure to raw milk, creek water, and undercooked chicken - who knows which vehicle caused the illness - that investigation was dropped - it was not attributed to raw milk because there were other risky exposures. Another one that went to the "cold case" files.
Campylobacter enteritis
http://tiny.cc/LqmQO
From the document:
"c. If possible, record any restaurants at which the case ate, including food item(s) consumed and date(s) of consumption. If you suspect that the case became infected through food, use the MDPH Foodborne Illness Complaint Worksheet (found online at...)"
Also, someone asked earlier about differentiating a Campylobacter infection from other causes of GI upset (like lactose intolerance). The key difference is isolation of Campylobacter from the stool of the patient in combination with compatible symptoms. Campylobacter is not a "normal" background flora in the human gut - it is abnormal and can cause great damage in some individuals. In the past, prisoners were used to study campylobacter symptoms and infectious dose (number campylobacter cells needed to cause clinical illness). Knowing what we know now, I don't think anyone would intentionally "feed" campylobacter to a human being. Clearly, Campylobacter should be kept out of raw milk and other foods...not used to "boost" immunity...that's my opinion, for what its worth.
"They will diagnose based on experience of interviewer."
Wow they have MDs or NPs/PAs doing these interviews? Lay people are not allowed to diagnose, that would be practicing without a license. Sounds like nonmedical people "diagnosing" illnesses. That would explain the sloppy investigations. Heaven forbid any govt worker asking questions, not on the form, to get correct data of a situation.
The "virus" is norovirus, and its symptoms can be similar to Campylobacter infection. However, isolation of Campylobacter from the stool of patients that have the symptoms is a definitive diagnosis since humans do not routinely "shed" Campylobacter in their feces. Norovirus ("stomach flu") is always going on in the background, and it is important that the investigators in CO rule it out. It appears they were not sloppy, and confirmed the diagnosis of Campylobacter.
If they’ve only linked 2 of the 10 cases to Kinikin…what about the other 8….or is campy just randomly showing up in ALL raw milk produced on the western slope, and miraculously effecting only raw milk drinkers. Still curious about the two non raw milk drinker cases….and their level of exposure to raw milk drinkers (and their bathroom door handles).
“the consensus is that it was caused by raw milk, though they admitted that there is no proof, but based on "high numbers" of raw milk drinkers, it is statistically significant.”
As we have seen before, even when there is no proof, the raw dairy is shut down….wonder how this would play with other food producers, if we just shut them down at the first sign of suspicion, with no proof…again we see uneven handed treatment for raw dairies (guilty until proven innocent). Statistical significance can be ‘created’…by altering the makeup of the whole group being studied, or tossing questionnaires that don’t support the end result you are looking for.
If there is a single case of campy in a non raw milk drinker then the chances of the milk being the cause goes down (especially if that person has no exposure to a raw milk drinker who supposedly has campy). The more non raw milk drinkers affected, the higher the chance that the outbreak is within the general population…
“They are aware that there has been a 'bug' going thru the area that causes diarrhea, but say they can tell the difference. They will only report on this 'bug' as it relates to the Kinikin Corner Dairy shareholders - if there is no outside link to another probable cause based on their interviews, they will not investigate beyond this group.”
They will not investigate beyond this group because that would prove that the dairy isn’t the cause. Without stool samples from non shareholders, the dairy can not be vindicated.
Seems like the raw milk is being made a convenient scapegoat ….especially when you consider that the incident has been strung out over weeks (if I read correctly)...
PENNSYLVANIA CHURCH LADIES RAIDED BY "FOOD SAFETY" COPS
By Linn Choen-Cole
Perhaps the home made pies could be, maybe, potentially, possibly, capable of being deemed a public health threat and contain a germ. BOO
"THOSE WHO WOULD GIVE UP ESSENTIAL LIBERTY TO PURCHASE A LITTLE TEMPORARY SAFETY DESERVE NEITHER LIBERTY NOR SAFETY" Benjamin Franklin
Are we or are we not in a struggle for our SOVEREIGNTY [freedom from rule by another] for whoever tells us what we may eat are surely our masters!
Someone please tell me its all about food safety and we will all live happily ever after just like in the fairy tales and Big Brother doesnt exists.
It would be nice if these people could further the cause of science given the startling increase in food-borne illnesses and antibiotic resistance. I realize they need to work within a budget, but we will never find the true cause of these problems if proper testing and questioning aren't performed.
This HD sounds more sympathetic than most, but they still seem to reach the foregone conclusion that it must be the raw milk. Nailing their case down tight would be of higher value to us all.
http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/government/fraud/state/news.php?q=1239658950
It is hard to believe this is happening in our nation the once great land of the free.
http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/509
http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/1999/599_bug.html
"Concerns About Chicken
Although found in many farm animals, Campylobacter in poultry is causing experts the most concern. There have been several studies pointing to high levels of Campylobacter present on poultry at the retail level, including a recent two-year Minnesota Department of Health study that found that 88 percent of poultry sampled from local supermarkets tested positive for the bacteria.
"The retail study was in collaboration with the Minnesota Department of Agriculture; their inspectors went to supermarkets throughout the St. Paul/Minneapolis Twin Cities area to cover a variety of supermarket types, from big chains to mom-and-pop stores," says Kirk E. Smith, D.V.M., a Minnesota state epidemiologist who participated in the study.
Many prior surveys have found Campylobacter contamination rates of between 40 and 60 percent, he says. "But 88 percent--this degree [of contamination] surprised even me," he admits.
In studies conducted by the U.S. Department of Agriculture's poultry microbiological safety research unit, more than 90 percent of poultry tested positive for Campylobacter, in levels ranging from one cell to over a million cells per bird.
Norman J. Stern, Ph.D., research leader for the unit, says the infection of poultry broiler flocks typically occurs at week three in the six-week growing cycle. It's not unusual, he says, for Campylobacter to infect the entire flock.
Things only get worse by the time the chickens reach the processing plant, he says. USDA studies have found a hundredfold increase in bacteria amounts on the birds' exterior from that detected on the farm. "The exterior contamination represents consumer exposure," he explains.
http://www.campylobacterblog.com/2009/03/articles/campylobacter-watch/poultry-litter-war-sees-battle-in-denver-remains-unsettled/
"The “poultry litter” war being waged by Oklahoma Attorney General Drew Edmondson and the mostly Arkansas-based chicken companies originally caught our attention because of its possible impact on campylobacter incidents in the Illinois River watershed."
"AG Edmondson wanted Judge Greg Fizzell, the trial judge, to grant Oklahoma’s motion for an emergency injunction to stop further application of poultry litter in the Illinois River watershed. Last September, however, Fizzell denied the injunction. He found that cattle and human waste (from failing septic systems) were contaminating the Illinois, but left the poultry litter pollution issue for trial.
When Fizzell ruled, the town of Locust Grove, OK was reeling from an outbreak of E coli 0111, a rare strain, that eventually killed a Pryor, OK man and sickened 313 others. About third of those ended up in area hospitals. All who became ill were linked to the popular Country Cottage restaurant.
After Oklahoma’s Department of Health failed to link the 0111 to any food or water source, the state’s investigation appeared to be at a dead-end. Then last month, AG Edmondson raised the possibility that the E. coli 0111 came from private well water contaminated by poultry litter.
Locust Grove is some distance from the Illinois River watershed, but the AG’s fingering poultry litter brought the chicken companies down on him in the 0111 outbreak investigation.
All of which made for high drama in the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals this week where AG Edmondson went seeking to over-turn Fizzell’s denial of the emergency injunction."
Could the application of poultry litter be the actual cause of the Montrose outbreak?
With snow melting and springtime rains falling,the water table in a valley, like the one that Kinikin Dairy is in,rises to the surface of the ground.The soil is saturated and wells can become contaminated by surface water.Springtime is also the time that confined animal feeding operations(CAFO's) try to get the winter's accumulation of manure out of the buildings and spread on the fields.Application of manure from tens of thousands of chickens naturally results in over application and runoff into streams and rivers.Seventeen miles north of Kinikin Dairy is a monstrous poultry farm owned by Fostor Farms.It would be surprising if people living in this small valley did not have springtime outbreaks of campylobacter associated diarreah.
It appears from the map that the river in this valley runs from north to south,carrying runoff from Foster Farms towards Montrose.Scott ,please correct me if I am wrong.
It may be that the well water at the Dairy has campylobacter in it ,or that the cow's drinking water is contaminated or even more likely that the Dairy is just a scapegoat,just someone to blame this outbreak on.Putting the blame for this outbreak on the giant chicken farm ,where it obviously belongs, would not be politically popular.Our attention is purposely distracted from the real cause of these illnesses so that a few people can grow enormously wealthy at the expense of our children's health and future.
It would be helpful to have DNA fingerprinting results for these Campylobacter isolates in Colorado. If they all match, that strongly suggests a common source. However, many states do not conduct genetic fingerprinting of Campylobacter like they do for E. coli O157:H7.
BTW, while the knee jerk reaction to deny raw milk outbreaks (say the health department faked the results and blamed raw milk erroneously) by some raw milk advocates to may be empowering for those involved in the movement, it likely sets things back in terms of convincing regulators to expand access to raw dairy. All these "what if" scenarios lack credibility. What if the Peanut Corporation of America was framed by the government? What if it wasn't peanuts, but chicken or maybe it was the spinach?
IMHO, the raw milk movement could make progress on the food rights issue because it makes a lot of sense, but so long as people are denying that outbreaks occur, and making statements about the unimportance of sanitation in raw milk production, the regulators probably won't come to the table to even start a dialog.
Edmundson is running for Governor.
I'm not quite sure you can really call this an outbreak unless DNA fingerprinting is done and the same strain turns up multiple times. Couldn't PulseNet be tapped to do this?
Also, I must've missed out. Has anyone here stressed the unimportance of sanitation in raw milk production? That's insane.